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Post by Airma on Aug 29, 2004 1:23:59 GMT 1
I usualy hate discussions about war in Cro, but I felt so humiliated and provoked by some people here twisting stories and truths. You took the words right out of my mouth.
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Post by Guest on Sept 2, 2004 13:32:02 GMT 1
C H you speak the truth. I'm not a big fan of Franks for a few reasons, the main one being is that he sold vukovar for Susaks hercegovina and as you stated in a previous post his ambition for a 'greater croatia' in hercegovina. We should have never gone to war with our muslim brothers but thanks to Frank and Gozza we did and the dream of a croatia sve do drine is just that, a dream.
I dont believe that the ex-croatian fighter fought for nothing, he did defend his homeland and fought for independance but i know where your coming from, the average fighter from hercegbosna must think what was it all for? Yes the country is in a s**tty state and it doesnt look like it will get any better soon but we do have our croatia and we all have to work hard to make something of it.
Now to all the serbs on this here forum... Firstly lets get this clear Krajina was never an autonimous region, it was never serbian land and it has always been a part of croatia. Yes it had a large serb population but that doesnt give them the right to claim it as 'serbian land'. The only reason the krajina is full of chetniks is because they ran from the turks 500 years ago. Another point, if the serbs only wanted the krajina region then why did they attack croatia in the north? Destroyed vukovar, vinkovci, osijek and the baranja regionin the east and in western slavonia pakrac, lipik, novska,daruvar etc etc
Now lets sit back and see what excuses they come up with for attacking slavonia Oh and i forgot to mention, why on earth did they attack dubrovnik??
ps: Jiras have you ever really asked yourself why, why did the ustase go on a massive killing spree and why did they hate the serb so much?
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Post by Janet on Sept 2, 2004 15:09:06 GMT 1
CH is absolutely right. Those politicians played God with people's lives in order to line their pockets. They convinced people that they needed to fight, and honourable people understanably believed the lies and fought for their country. Just look at the privatizations that were rushed through when the diversionary tatic of the war was on. These politicians are the real war criminals. All those people who stole Croatian silver (i.e. privatised companies) under the cover of the war are the ones who should pay.
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Post by Airma on Sept 2, 2004 20:29:01 GMT 1
In vukovar serbs were being expelled and croatia army (Rebels, there was no official army) were killing, torturing and slaughtering inncoent serbs and burning their houses/churches. They dumped the majority of the dead serb bodies into the Danube river to carry them to Belgrade, (as did the Ustasa in WW2) When JNA intervined to stop the ethnically cleansing but were attacked and a war had started in the cit between CRO and SERB, many.
Dubrovnik!! Haha dont make me laugh!
Croat Army (Rebels) were losing many battles to JNA and were being pushed back to the south untill they finnaly fled to Dubrovnik. In Dubrovnik there were already statined JNA troops mostly from Montenegro. JNA did not wish to fight croats because Dubrovnik was a historic site which there are too be no battles in war. (Kinda like Venice in WW2) However croat rebels attacked the JNA and they had to fight back. They did not want to bomb the hell out of the place so they bombed it with low impact shells. (They could have used real bombs and flattended the city, but they didnt want to) In the end it was mostly just rooftops which were destroyed while the croat rebels had totally burned down serb churches and other serb properties.
Regarding Ustasa - How dare you even think of coming up with something to excuse the cromse of the Ustasa, thats sick.
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Post by svugrekzg on Sept 3, 2004 4:14:14 GMT 1
Oh Airma, why are you making it look so complicated. Just simply say that the Croats bombed Vukovar and Dubrovnik which are btw. Serbian cities. Speaking of Krajina, I finally agree this is a Serbian land that was never part of Croatia, because Croatia never existed, I doesnt exist today either, it is a mass hallucination. And yes, I also heard that over 2.000.000 serbs were expelled from ancient western Serbian lands. I still can't understand that stupid Croats fought JNA that was a friendly oriented army just trying to stabilize Croatia and this part of Europe. Ummmm, I just love this crack, why dont you have some of it with me, Airma ? Works pretty good Pozdrav
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Post by Guest on Sept 3, 2004 4:17:32 GMT 1
So you believe that in no way the serbs were after a greater serbia?
Croat Army (Rebels) were losing many battles to JNA and were being pushed back to the south untill they finnaly fled to Dubrovnik. In Dubrovnik there were already statined JNA troops mostly from Montenegro. JNA did not wish to fight croats because Dubrovnik was a historic site which there are too be no battles in war. (Kinda like Venice in WW2) However croat rebels attacked the JNA and they had to fight back. They did not want to bomb the hell out of the place so they bombed it with low impact shells. (They could have used real bombs and flattended the city, but they didnt want to) In the end it was mostly just rooftops which were destroyed while the croat rebels had totally burned down serb churches and other serb properties.
So if the JNA were already in dubrovnik as you say, that means they were shelling eachother? Or even better the croats were shelling dubrovnik!! As for vukovar, true that the radical serbs were expelled from their homes but please dont give me some s**t about mass killings and bodies that were thrown in the river to drift to belgrade. I f u want to talk about mass killings, why dont you talk about ovcara and the recent mass grave found near the village of tordinci
I'm not excusing any crimes. I just asked whether Jiras or anyone else have actually asked the question, "Why did the ustase go on a massive killing spree and why did they hate the serb so much?" Could it be the 20 years of persecution they suffered under the serb dominated yugoslavia?
'Znate li koliko je pravih, uvjerenih fasista bilo u hrvatskoj 1941? Najvise pedeset. Svima ostalima fasizam nije znacio nista, oni su samo zeljeli neovisnu hrvatsku. Buduci da su im tadasnje fasisticke sile nudile drzavu, oni su se preobukli u njihove odore. Da su im Amerikanci,Englezi, Francuzi ili cak sovjeti nudili hrvatsku drzavu oni bi isli s njima'
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Post by Guest on Sept 15, 2004 15:25:28 GMT 1
I have sat and read through some of the notes that you have all been leaving on this dicussion site, who was right who was wrong Serbs / Croats etc etc..... I am English, and can honestly say that I am not happy with our current prime minister Tony Blair, who deciding to go to war on Iraq, against the wishes of most of the British public, just to help out the US. ( But that is another story) the fact is that no one has any right or power to decide to put my life or that of my loved ones at risk (whatever the cause) Human life is worth so much more than a political argument that cannot be settled by two grown me, but guarenteed will always end in bloodshed. Is any argument really worth a killing. Only recently we all witnessed those poor children in Baslam, please someone tell me, who's war where they fighting - who did they have an argument with. There must be some of you, that saw those horrific pictures of small graves, to want something better for the future and the future of our children. Maybe the lesson to us all is to try and live in a world, regardless of any religion, colour and race and to live in peace. Lets leave the past where it should be and look to educate people for a better tomorrow, or those poor poor children of Baslam would have died for nothing. All ask yourselves one thing:- is death more effective than the power of speach ??
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Post by No Nationality on Sept 21, 2004 23:35:23 GMT 1
I don't even think it is worth me posting a reply here. I think the best solution is to leave whichever country you are in now and leave all this political bull to people who have nothing better to do. I for one agree with the comments made by the C.H. Let's face the facts, all sides killed and tortured. Americans were responsible for igniting the war in Yugoslavia. That is just a fact. If you do not know that, then you still do not know anything. I come from a family well known in Croatia, family of journalists and writers and when we were talking in public about what Tudjman has in store for everyone, us, the kids were beaten and threats made to my family as well as many other intellectuals who spoke out in the early days. There are worse things that happened but I don't feel like sharing details. Moreover, you should all be ashamed for digging the graves. Let the dead rest. You are all no better, because I am sure at one point your political opinions were different and a bit more hateful. Now you read few articles and watch few documentaries and think you can form an opinion of your own. Look where it all brought you before. If I was you I would put my hand in the sand and hope the rest of the world will forget and FORGIVE your primitive and barbaric actions. And if the war wasn't enough you show the world how stupid you really are and start pointing fingers and making excuses, they don't care. They only seen the flags carried by soldiers and these weren't just Serbian. And ohhhh, they killed. And these graves werent just 10,000 because a lot more than that are missing. But let's mention the influx of Balkan Mafia all over Europe. The war veterans now armed with experience of murder are equiped to take out anyone standing in their way including you guys. While they work together (Albanian, Bosnian, Serbian, Croatian) the rest of you fight. But for them its business and for you it is still obviously personal. Instead of talking about past issues, why don't you turn to the current problem ? Here is your chance to do something right.... Start putting pressure on your government to take evasive action. Only they are doing good while you are still busy moaning and your prescious country is falling apart.
P.S. That goes for all EX-Yugoslav nationalities and I am Croatian unfortunetly. But not for long since I will be receiving my citizenship soon.
Famous Quote: "If you live by the sword, you die by the sword"
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Post by no nationality on Sept 21, 2004 23:52:28 GMT 1
the term 'you' is being used in my post because I feel that if 'you' feel 'you' have the right to defend actions of others that murdered but did not murder yourself, than 'you' are solely responsible as if you held the gun and pulled the trigger.
Goodbye
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Post by no nationality on Sept 22, 2004 0:02:07 GMT 1
and one more thing. The guest from England, I wish I could frame your text because it could make a descent person cry. In just few words you make more sense then all these people on a 3 page long post. English cannot be proud themselfs for going to war in Iraq and Afghanistan. And many other wars and terrors they caused throughout centuries. But it takes a lot of guts to admit that. Afterall, a nationality is only a word and history, well, its history. But we are all made out of same material with a crap hole at end, though some lack positive electrons in the upper department.
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Post by PRIDE on Sept 22, 2004 7:17:06 GMT 1
You all make me sick. No nationality please tell me how the U.S ignited the balkan wars? What did tudjman have install for everyone? All he did was declare independants following the overwhelming support by the CROATIAN people for independants. I really dont give a toss who did this how many died there...the bottom line is that there is a small INDEPENDANT nation situated in the adriatic and its name is CROATIA! The rest is history.......
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Post by AndyPandy on Sept 22, 2004 10:08:30 GMT 1
No Nationality Your ignorance is manifest. England causing wars !?
If you mean Britain, we were the ONLY country in 1940 who stood up to dictatorship and Nazi Germany. The US didn't get involved, USSR was on Germany's side (as was Croatia) and the rest of Europe had succumbed. We didnt have to get involved Germany didn't want a war against Britain we did it to protect freedom in Poland. Oh and I guess you think the Taliban is a good thing?. We didnt have to lose men there or in WWI (started by silly Balkanians) but we were not selfish.
Also if you think the British empire was so bad remember we created infrastructure hospital roads and when the countries became independent we helped them to setting up e.g. new Malaysian and Ugandan airforces which my Dad was involved in. We brought Christianity and didnt exterminate the people like at Jasenovac. If we were so bad why did all the ex Empire countries want to join the Commonwealth?
And remember the British Navy got rid of slavery in Africa and abolished slavery 100 years before the Americans. So as for "Independence" in the US it was a joke (and we didnt genocide the native americans population or othewr pop where we had influence)
You ignorance shows stupidity to those that know the fact and read your inane posts. You should understand the the British have a sense of fair play decency and freedom
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Post by No Nationality on Sept 22, 2004 15:11:31 GMT 1
to begin with I was merely pointing out the gentleman was from England ... not reffering to Britain as England. I should know the difference, I live here. I think you definetly need to read your history a bit more before you come here. Country Military - Civilian - Total Deaths (WWII) IN ORDER USSR 13,600,000 7,700,000 21,300,000 China 1,324,000 10,000,000 11,324,000 Germany 3,250,000 3,810,000 7,060,000 Poland 850,000 6,000,000 6,850,000 Japan - - 2,000,000 TEXT Rumania 520,000 465,000 985,000 France 340,000 470,000 810,000 Hungary - - 750,000 Austria 380,000 145,000 525,000 Greece - - 520,000 United States 500,000 - 500,000 Italy 330,000 80,000 410,000 Czechoslova TEXTkia - - 400,000 TEXT Netherlands 198,000 12,000 210,000 Belgium 76,000 12,000 88,000 Finland - - 84,000 Canada 39,000 - 39,000 India 36,000 - 36,000 Australia 29,000 - 29,000 Albania - - 28,000 Spain 12,000 10,000 22,000 Bulgaria 19,000 2,000 21,000 New Zealand 12,000 - 12,000 Norway - - 10,262 South Africa 9,000 - 9,000 Luxembourg - - 5,000 Denmark 4,000 - 4,000 Total - - 56,125,262 I would just like to point out that if Romans didn't come to "Britain" you would still be hitting nuts with rocks. They taught you how to build roads as well as masonry. Napoleon built schools and roads in Yugoslavia and modernised half of Europe, should we thank him too ? Point two, we didnt even have slavery, so great you abolished it since you started it, not the Americans you silly man. And get off your high horse before you start talking about descency. All over the history you have been responsible for more murders than WWI & WW2 put together. You colonised half of the world; India, China, Australia, the Carribean, South Africa, India, Parts of South America, Canada, parts of Europe, in fact I cannot name a place where you did not dictate. You exterminated civilisations. And as for Christianity, it was brought to you. You just then forcefully brought it to others with your holy crusades? Do you actually know how many people died in the name of Christianity? No you don't, so read few more books and you views don't count since most people in UK do not agree with what you just said. What gives you the right to go into Afghanistan ? It is their problem what government they have. Question an uneducated person like youself might ask, is why you went into Afghanistan or Iraq? Is it because Afghanistan is rich in mineral resources as well as Opium, Gas and Oil Why is Russia in Chechnya? Same reason... You go into war for your own agendas, to exploit resources from others like you did throughout history, except now you step low and create moral excuses. Not all X commonwealth countries want to join, you are speaking of Hong Kong that had only one alternative... you or China. They chose China since they could never be a sovreign state, why would they want to be dictated by your fat-cat politicians. I would not be proud of things you did, instead, you too should bury your head in the sand and ask the world for forgivness since some have already forgot. Ask for forgivness from Native Indians, indians, blacks, scots, irish, and small Iraqi/Afghan children you are currently bombing all in name of decency and FREEDOM.
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Post by No Nationality on Sept 22, 2004 15:18:55 GMT 1
sorry text in red is Yugoslavia:
Yugoslavia 300,000 1,400,000 1,706,000
the other one is UK:
Great Britain 326,000 62,000 388,000
P.S. Read how much the partizans contributed to winning the WWII and read on about Treaty of Versailles where Germany had to pay Britain, French and U.S. money that would leave them crippled and in turn lead to WW2. Just look at out civilian deathrate and yours. So before you start insulting, remember that many people still have memories of these things, including my Grandmother.
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Post by AndyPandy on Sept 22, 2004 16:07:42 GMT 1
Your statistics don't pass the "so what?" test. They are entirely relevant to any point. They are meaningless Ecuador lost no-one in WWII does that mean they they are even less moral than the UK!!! Your comments are so banal stupid + uneducated that they are not even worthg repyling to As I said before if we treated these people so bad why did they all want to joint the Commonwealth? ? PS Your grandmother still has memories of these, so do! I I guess your respponse shows that knowledge and wisdom come from age. PS The Treaty Versailles was very bad but the Conditions were forced by the French the UK and US urged France to drop them When you get your facts right I will respond again
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