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Post by EMIZ on Mar 13, 2005 15:03:12 GMT 1
Star; if your interest were purely from a historical viewpoint; it is a million to one chance that you would decide to talk about Bleiburg; talk about some of Croatia’s evils. You feel the need to play the victim and profess the myth that Croatia has been bullied for years and every problem in Croatia is somebody else’s fault; anybodies just not Croatia's. This publication is nothing but propaganda if you find this a valid history writing; well good luck with your studies; you will need it. Time to accept responsibility and move on.
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croam
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Post by croam on Mar 13, 2005 16:28:34 GMT 1
Quest... You came on here and started attacking. You state your opinions and don't back them up with facts(you don't even try). I'm not looking for people to agree with me. I'm not a "yes man", however, if you state your opinions, than at least have the decency to back them up with some kind of rationale.
What did you mean by this.."I was obviously right stating that you know very well why are you living in Australia... So, just one more thing - may God help you one day."
or..."Just replace the word "Croats" with "people who have similar fate like gs" and it will be ok. I must also admit they are very good at embarrassing Croatia all over the world if they made you believe what you believe."
Why did you think my post was unnacceptable, because i told you to odjebi? I didn't attack you until after you attacked me and several other people in an unintelligent matter. You still won't answer your country of origin, WHY? Are you afraid that people will think your biased? I'm from the US with Croatian heritage FYI. So you never told me the truth about Croatia. Ajde reci brate.
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Post by star on Mar 13, 2005 17:29:13 GMT 1
Star; if your interest were purely from a historical viewpoint; it is a million to one chance that you would decide to talk about Bleiburg; talk about some of Croatia’s evils. Oh my, full of conspiracy theories are we? How would it be a million to one shot? I told you I study east european history so of course I would know about it. It sad that most people in the west know little about it because it doesn't interest them even though it happened in their backyard. Moreover, I only mentioned it because a previous poster already had. Do you think the incident should not be investigated and buried in the past? And why would I talk about Croatia's evils? Is that the only thing you consider worthy of discussion? Pretty bizzare for a website set up to promote travel to croatia don't you think? And you feel the need to play the psychologist. How about I give it a go. If I had to guess I'd say you are probably serbian and/or communist and can't stand that an independent Croatia wants to rediscover its culture and past. Perhaps some of your relatives even took part in the massacres which is why you don't want it mentioned. Instead you want only the bad things croatia did mentioned because that would justify your ancestors actions in your eyes. You see I can tell this is true because you display the same insane serbian national mysticism which prevents them from crawling out of the dark ages. Don't you just love generalizing about people you dont know? You keep claiming something is a myth and propaganda but you never back it up. Prove your point or else move on. Typical commie tactic of poisoning the well in order to stop debate. No one needs to read your nonsense.
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Post by EMIZ on Mar 13, 2005 18:00:17 GMT 1
This is perhaps the funniest thing I have ever read on here. My name is EMIZ Englishman in ZZZZZZZZZZagreb I have never even set foot in the Balkans until 5 or 6 years; I despise communism; you're the communist because you feel the need to promote propaganda.
I am the ultimate capitalist; I despise communism and all that it stands for; many Croats still think like communists and you are one of them You have a typical communist attitude of lying to make your point seem valid. It fools only fools.
You chose this article because English people are perhaps the biggest critics of modern day Croatia in this website; you’re missing the point; we know that the UK has done bad things; we are not stupid enough to believe our country is perfect.
I don’t believe you’re a student; firstly you’re never very bright; secondly this is not a serious piece of journalism; it is child’s stuff, only a fool would make a serious point from this. If as you said you were looking at it purely from a historical point of view; you would look at different incidents, not one when the poor little Croats were treated badly…bless you. It must be a really sad life when you spend your time crying about what the nasty Brits allowed to happen 50 years ago. Do you really believe that anybody will fall for your stunts? You would suit a role in Serbia perfectly; because this is the same type of tactics they use; send your CV to the Serbian foreigner affairs office.
Tell me more about World War II and Croatia’s role; I am sure it’s fascinating; of course you wont do that, and actually I couldn’t care less; I know what happened; I know when Croatia was good and when Croatia was bad; the problem is you and many here want to lie about history and repaint Croatia’s history.
Rather pathetic I am sure you will agree.
Just to test your theory; tell me about the Ustashe, I want to see if the truth is beyond you, or witness you glorify them.
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Post by EMIZ on Mar 13, 2005 18:06:54 GMT 1
One more thing; if as I suspect most of the returning soldiers were ustashe; didn't they just receive a taste of their own medicine?
I assume they were ustashe as they were fighting for the nazi's.
Poor sweet innocent victims.
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Post by quest89 on Mar 13, 2005 18:25:56 GMT 1
Quest... You came on here and started attacking. You state your opinions and don't back them up with facts(you don't even try). I'm not looking for people to agree with me. I'm not a "yes man", however, if you state your opinions, than at least have the decency to back them up with some kind of rationale. Criticism accepted. I appologize. Well the post was ment to EMIZ as you could see and he will know what I'm talking (writing) about. It refered to people who are helping discredit my country with their recalling the dark side of our history and even anti-semitism. And think to represent the Croats at the same time. I didn't think your post was unacceptable, it was gs'. But where I disagree with you is your stating that the crimes of "our" fascists were worse than crimes of others. You actually can't compare those atrocities, it is pointless, you can only build a tolerant society which makes them impossible to happen. In order not to be whole off topic I must say that this web site (cro m&r) can give people a different view on the recent history of the Balcans but I doubt it can convince someone to something although I didn't notice any wrong numbers in the part I read. student, zg,croatia
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Post by star on Mar 13, 2005 19:20:28 GMT 1
This is perhaps the funniest thing I have ever read on here. Good. I'm glad you appreciate my satire. I must be tired, I thought you wrote you were in the 5th or 6th grade. You certainly sound like it by your writing though. *You're the Communist!* - *No you are! nyah!* I'm a Canadian born and raised. Point to me where I have lied. Or do you expect everyone to take your word for it? I've asked you a number of times that if you are going to make an accusation you should at least give everyone else the courtesy of backing up your statements. No, I believe you are missing the point. I don't recall anyone here claiming either the UK or Croatia was perfect. I posted a document to generate discussion on the facts and to cut through the propaganda. You on the other hand have at every opportunity tried to block the discussion by poisoning the well instead of writing a coherent rebuttle. Case in point. I spent all of two minutes on it initially. People were looking for some honest feedback instead you give the ever enlightening 'Shut up, you deserved it routine'. That may have worked on the Croatians when they were threatned by Tito, but now that they're free they will keep looking for answers. That's funny. I imitate your style and you say I should work in Serbia. Pretty telling. Again, what did we lie about? Quite. Pretty broad topic. What do you want to know? Hmm, I guess you didn't even bother to read the articles. I guess I should have expected as much. Some were Ustasi, some were domobran, some were even serbian chetniks, many were civilians including women and children. In effect, anyone who resisted the communist government. But I don't suppose that little fact will wake you out of your dreamland.
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Post by EMIZ on Mar 13, 2005 19:31:00 GMT 1
So...as I can see you don't have anything interesting to say about Croatian history...only this..student my arše.
Carry on with your propoganda..the stupid people are ready and waiting.
Simply you are justifying your subjective stance; simply put you're rather simple.
It always seems to be the semi Croats; those who get their info from their Croatian grandparents or parents who talk the most crap.
Did daddy tell you how nice the Ustashe men were? All the nice things they did? I am sure he did.
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croam
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Post by croam on Mar 13, 2005 19:45:35 GMT 1
Quest: I wasn't trying to overemphasize the Ustashe or Deny them. My grandfather died in WWII because he was in the Ustashe. I'm not proud or ashamed of him. I didn't know him. I know that he dissappeared and was never found and we think he died at bleiburg but who really knows his fate but HE PAID FOR HIS MISTAKES WITH HIS LIFE. I think its easy to armchair quarterback WWII, the iraq war, the civil wars in YU. I think that when the chips fall, they fall to one side or the other. I hope i am never forced to choose sides, never forced to fight, but I will choose sides if i have to, I will fight if i have to. So if the war comes to the US, regardless of how i feel about Iraq or the US governments choices in "foreign relations", I will fight to the death. Just like if i move to croatia and war breaks out, I'll break out the tech nine and fight to the death. I just hope it never comes to that. Obviously this is a hot topic. Alot of people like to think they are Ghandi and wouldn't do the things that others have...but its easy to say if you've never been forced into it. I think its a bit different when houses are blowing up around you, your family is killed, etc etc. I would however like to think that I personally would never execute or torture innocent civilians. I think i can say that for sure. And thats what the Nazis, the chetniks, Ustashe, and Al Quada and other terrorists have done. In war however, you always have the rogue maniacs who simply like to kill. Its disgusting, but a fact of war. Thats why people shouldn't start wars, bad happens, really bad . Peace out Brate ;D
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croam
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Post by croam on Mar 13, 2005 20:01:54 GMT 1
quest:"I didn't think your post was unacceptable, it was gs'. But where I disagree with you is your stating that the crimes of "our" fascists were worse than crimes of others. You actually can't compare those atrocities, it is pointless, you can only build a tolerant society which makes them impossible to happen. In order not to be whole off topic I must say that this web site (cro m&r) can give people a different view on the recent history of the Balcans but I doubt it can convince someone to something although I didn't notice any wrong numbers in the part I read."
I agree with you about building a tolerant society. Here in the US we had discrimination against women and blacks until the 1960s. People talk about it, there are documentaries, but we aren't beating a dead horse over the topic. The US has done some bad too, like bomb Japan, Dresden where innocent civilians were targeted, the American Indians, etc etc. Not to mention slavery. These are deplorable acts. They shouldn't be denied, but they shouldn't be overemphasized or dwelled upon either. Decendents of slaves who are seek reparitions are viewed(in my opinion) as rediculous and insane. Why should I have to pay for what my ancestors did? That brings me to the point of building a tolerant world. If we don't move on we will repeat what our granfathers did. If we deny what they did than we will repeat the same mistakes as well. I agree that the atrocities cannot be compared. They are all horrible. We shouldn't deny that these things happened, or keep talking about how the Croats or Serbs or anyone else are evil based on THE PAST. They're no more evil than the germans or italians of today. I go to school with Germans and have a professor who is german. They are not nazis at all and I would be looked upon as insane if i accused them of being nazis. It should work both ways. And the atrocities of the Balkan war are completely different ball game than WWII. The EU and the US broke apart YU. It is pure logic and fact. What happened afterward is horrible and shouldn't be excused but THATS WHAT HAPPENS DURING WAR! Its not sanitary. how many Iraqi civilians have died that the west doesn't report? Tony Blair(george bush's butt plug) and the US have killed so many innocents to install a regime change(democracy). They did the same thing in YU. I don't care anymore, or at least i'm trying not to care about things i have no control over. But god help anyone who starts a war in my back yard. They better kill me in my sleep. There are alot of retards who like to paint current events and history with a simplistic broad stroke but that is just what it is. Simple minded. I admit that i will never know 100% of the truth of most things simply because i will never have all the facts. Peace out!
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Post by FreshAir on Mar 14, 2005 0:00:01 GMT 1
Why are you talking about this? Seriously; I do not understand Croats obsession with history and playing the victim. . Why are you talking about this? Seriously; I do not understand Croats obsession with history and playing the victim. . First off why not talk about history. There is nothing wrong with sharing history. Croatian are not acting like victims here we are just sharing information and facts. I don't see anyone acting like a victim. I don't see anyone yelling at jews that they bring up their history. People are sharing these things so maybe like this won't happen in the future. British are always talking about their history but only the good parts, same like the americans. Example (americans) celebrate thanksgiving and kids draw little turkeys and talk about all the things they are thankful for ..... What about all the f***King American Indians that suffered and died. They gloss over that in school and only talk about the positive. Same with the American Troops all being hero's over in Iraq. Give me a break, there are American soldiers over in Iraq doing some really bad stuff but again that gets glossed over! Why not talk about real facts and history not just the easy to hear stuff but the bad truths that some people don't want to face. The English and Americans did some atrocious in the WWII but you will never get to hear that in their history books. The government won't even open sealed records to let the world know what kind of stuff they were doing, WHY? I think enough time has gone by I think Britian and America should come clean! So why sweep history under a rug, you tell us Croatians that we talk to much about history, maybe because the history that we talk about has been swept under the rug and we want the truth.
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Post by EMIZ on Mar 14, 2005 0:18:20 GMT 1
Let's be serious...in some wars there is no good or bad..in WWII there was certainly a good side and a bad side.
You cannot compare Bleirburg to what happened to the Jews; because the Jews had not been ethnically cleaning before they suffered; the vast majority of Bleirburg deaths; were returning soldiers, i.e. ustashe and as far as I am concerned they got what they deserved, the innocent women and children involved; although I am confused to why women and children would be returning from a war zone; well that is terrible.
I am sure Croats were just considered barbaric murderers and little thought was given to what laid ahead of them. It's nonsense to say you are just talking about history...why chose this one subject? Stop the BS nobody is fooled.
We are fools who believe anything we are told.
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Post by FreshAir on Mar 14, 2005 0:24:19 GMT 1
So...as I can see you don't have anything interesting to say about Croatian history...only this..student my arše. Carry on with your propoganda..the stupid people are ready and waiting. Simply you are justifying your subjective stance; simply put you're rather simple. It always seems to be the semi Croats; those who get their info from their Croatian grandparents or parents who talk the most crap. Did daddy tell you how nice the Ustashe men were? All the nice things they did? I am sure he did. Why do you bother to post no one cares what you have to say, especially when it is the same old accusations and stupid answers you always give, to you everyone is spreading propaganda and we are all commies. You are so boring and STAR definetly has the upper hand over you! She comes to the table with facts and not silly accusations like you EMIZ!
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Post by FreshAir on Mar 14, 2005 0:37:01 GMT 1
the vast majority of Bleirburg deaths; were returning soldiers, i.e. ustashe and as far as I am concerned they got what they deserved, . I am sure Croats were just considered barbaric murderers and little thought was given to what laid ahead of them. . So what you are saying is. Send prisoners to their death. You sound a bit barbaric to me! And if you think that British soldiers did not know what laid ahead for all these Croatian men, women and children. You are a FOOL! The Brits and Americans did know what was going to happen to these people but they did not care!
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Post by star on Mar 14, 2005 2:50:32 GMT 1
Let's be serious...in some wars there is no good or bad..in WWII there was certainly a good side and a bad side. You cannot compare Bleirburg to what happened to the Jews; because the Jews had not been ethnically cleaning before they suffered; the vast majority of Bleirburg deaths; were returning soldiers, i.e. ustashe and as far as I am concerned they got what they deserved, the innocent women and children involved; although I am confused to why women and children would be returning from a war zone; well that is terrible. EMIZ please stop putting words in other peoples's mouths. No one compared the croatians to the Jews except that if you told the Jews to forget what happened to them in the past and move on you'd probably have a lawsuit on your hands. The women and children were not returning to a war zone but running away from it. Anyone who opposed the communists, not just the Ustashi, picked up their bags and left infront of the advancing partizans. According to Leo Tolstoy, there were even thousands of Serbian Chetniks among the refugees because the communists considered them enemies of the state as well. You can read historian Nikolai Tolstoy's analysis in the following link. I doubt anyone could find much cause to call him a propagandist. I could be wrong: www.serendipity.li/hr/bleiburg_massacres.htmSo were the Germans, but the allies didn't send fleeing soldiers into the arms of Stalin. The same thing happened there. Hundreds of thousands preferred to surrender to the allies rather than the communists because they knew what would happen to them. In a croatia there was a mass exodus of people from all walks of life into bleiburg austria looking for protection. I stick to this subject because you keep bringing it up. Obviously the original article deals with much more than just bleiburg. Thats why there is always honest discussion to cut through the noise. And lastly, before I go, I'd just like to reiterrate that Croatians do not hate the British, though they may dislike its official policy towards Croatians. Many still have fond memories of the British Mercenaries who helped train their army and fought along side them in '92. There was a book put out a few years ago called "WAR DOGS - British Mercenaries In Bosnia Tell Their Own Story" by keith cory-jones which described their actions. If anything they hate us Canadians for the incident at Medak Pocket, but that was their own doing.
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