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Post by Ugursuz on Mar 28, 2005 14:34:03 GMT 1
Such a pile of crap can only rarely be found. It's rare like a 500 carat diamond. However, it's still only a pile of crap. Get yourself a shrink and get it FAST!
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croam
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Post by croam on Mar 28, 2005 15:41:01 GMT 1
sorry... i meant iranian...not Illyrian...and there are similarities with iranian linguistics...anyways...
Valiant i thought you said earlier in a post that you were from australia...correct me if im wrong...but if you are then why are you bitching about foreigners...and if you dont want to work till your 80 and still be poor why dont you go somewhere else to make some money? What are your skillz? Do you know how many foreign companies and persons own stuff in America? If your average american was as smart and competitive then they would be raking in the dough...instead..we need to import professionals from foreign lands to fill up the demand. my parents for example. if everyone else is too stupid or inept to make it then thats their problem. survival dude....your on your own. why swim up stream? if your skilled then come to the us. good luck
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Post by valiant on Mar 28, 2005 17:42:13 GMT 1
i am originally from australia. i live in croatia. urgusuz. if its such a pile of crap , in other words you are telling me that im a liar? why dont you give me your arguments? prove me wrong. please. i can even tell you that in slavonia , there are hardly any original slavonians...many people there are from hercegovina and bosna. have you seen the people in split? they are very tall and slim. the girls are tall , slim and fair hair. absolutely nothing in common with iranians. absolutels 0 . they dont even look meditteranean, more like scandinavian . croats have a problem with their own history because its based on so many made up irregularities. croats came from a region where many slav cultures accumulated as nomads , thats beyond the carpathian mountains. croats came to croatia in the 7th century. there was no evidence of a written croatian language before the 8th century. now , how is it possible that croats came from iran , if in iran(ancient mesopotamia , one of the oldest most ancient civilizations on earth) ancient sumerians were writing thousands of years BC? not to mention all of their other numerous cultural advances. why would ancient croats , if from iran , allow themselves to become slavisized , if the slav cultures were nomadic, without any written language, without any significant cultural advances? why would they change everything , from their names to the way they dress , to the language they speak , to giving up a written language ? and then come to croatia and virtually slavisize the remains of illyria , copy the remnants of what culteur there was left in illyria, only if it suited them and only out of nesessity because they didnt know how to do things themselves and were too proud to admit they dont know certain things. . it does not make sence. urgusuz you are one of those typical soccer hooligan mentality people if you cant question the facts that are on the table. use your brain and figure out that 1+1 =2. its not that hard. cro history is more like 1+1=2 but maybe 2 was a made up number, and maybe 1 had its origins in the number 5 , maybe this maybe that. have you ever seen the sarcophagus of the legendary "queen jelena" ? you cannot tell me that it looks fake?my wife is beside me and she is laughing at me and telling me "da serem" hahhaa. its all funny. i dont break my head over the issue. but i know what the facts show and if you take some time and take a few breathes and be honest to yourself, you will see that there is no evidence to back up popular croatian history , other than obscure black and white drawings. where are the croatian artifacts from pre 8th century ad? where are they? what are they? where are the croatian "iranian" artifacts? do you know that glagolica directly corresponds to todays croatian ? its just different symbols for the same letters . its not a foreign iraninan text or anything. and that glagolic text on the bascanska ploca is the oldest recorded croatian writing in croatia , and it was written 100 years after the arrival of the croats to todays croatia. croats couldnt even write in those 100 years from arriving to croatia till the 8th century ad. so how couls crotas be from iran? give me some facts please.
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Post by Three Lions on Mar 28, 2005 18:21:10 GMT 1
where are the ancient Croatians in the Flintstones, what outfit are they wearing? Are they the ones who go to work on the green dinosaurs?
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croam
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Post by croam on Mar 28, 2005 21:01:30 GMT 1
valiant..even if you are right about your dates...who cares? does that invalidate a culture? Your a nutjob...are pissed off, and are lashing out on an entire culture based on your own personal angst. you never answered your ethnicity and citizenship.
So lets say croats didnt exist before 6ad, what are you trying to say. Not that i agree with you, just playing devil's advocate.
You claim that they don't have their own culture. Your a f**kin' nutjob. you may not like it but they have one.
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Post by Daria13 on Mar 29, 2005 3:21:07 GMT 1
hello everyone.
well i just want to say GS hilarious site that u posted...
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Post by star on Mar 29, 2005 5:38:47 GMT 1
where are the croatian artifacts from pre 8th century ad? where are they? In the ukraine and southern poland where all the slavs came from originally. The Iranian artifacts are linguistical. As in alot of slav languages there are obvious Iranian loan words. "Hrvati" itself is derived from Iranian. Glagolitic is just a form they adopted at the time, just like they adopted Latin later on. My prof mentioned something I had never realized before but which I found humorous. The common slavic term for the Germans is "Nijemci" which means "mute" or "dumb". This is because in ancient times the Germans spoke an unitelligble language though the slavs had alot of interaction with them. It's extremely difficult to say because the study of Slav pre-history is paltry at best. Lets face it, most people in the West don't give a d**n about it. That's probably why I find it fascinating. The best theory around now, and one I find the most acceptable is that "Hrvati" is indeed the name of an Iranian tribe, possibly Sarmatian. Like with other slavs, this tribe was comprised of the military elite which the slavs gathered around and soon adopted their name. The slavs were numerically far superior and the Iranian tribe soon became "slavicized". The same thing happened with the Bulgarians which is well documented. The Bulgars were a Turkic tribe which became slavicized after uniting various slav tribes under their name. One thing my prof mentioned which he found interesting was the name of a sarmatian tribe called the "Antes" which is a very popular name for croatian males today.
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Post by Ugursuz on Mar 29, 2005 7:25:29 GMT 1
why would ancient croats , if from iran , allow themselves to become slavisized , if the slav cultures were nomadic, without any written language, without any significant cultural advances?
Man, you have no idea what you are talking about...If genetic material shows something, the most probable fact behind it that it cannot be disputed AT THIS POINT. Your 'logic' is no logic at all and first of all it is because we are talking about layers and layers of movement of people through 6000-7000 years. Do you have any idea that Culture of Summer is less old than that and that only written artifacts left from them are clay tables? What written artefacts you want from 5000 years ago? People moving from Asia to Mediterranean with their herds of sheep and goats? If genetic screening shows minor traces of Slavic markers in general croatian population that means all that crap about Croats coming from Poland or Ukraine to the Adriatic is just poetic nonsense, whatever you think about it. You are just part of this poetic nonsense so consequently, you can't see it. If triangle is two dimensional being it can very well can be imagined this triangle cannot imagine three dimensional cube. Got it?
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Post by valiant 1 on Mar 29, 2005 10:18:03 GMT 1
aha. so croats came from iran but 6,000 or 7,000 years ago? according to popular cro history , croats were in iran still at about the time of alexander the great. and another thing, croatian history books refer to some stone slab from tanais , an ancient greek settlement on the coast of the black sea. on this slab the word "horovatoas" is written. fistly, it is a word that is similar to the word hrvat , it is not the same word. and secondly, even in croatian history books, the word "horovatos" according to ancient greek means "ranch man " . so if it means "ranch man " it means basically that ...."ranch man" . if the word "horovatos" meant ...croat or croatian person they would have stated that this horovatos was a person of a particular race and culture , they would have elaborated on that. i mean if i write the word "ranch man " on a stone slab today, does this mean that in a 1,000 years from now, someone in rangoon will say that they originated in croatia? and another thing...i have yet to even see a real life color photo of this stone slab from tanais. and by the way , its the only written proof that croat historians consider to be the most tangible evidence of croats being from that region. and that region is still not in iran. also ,croat being of sarmatian origin , is only a theory, like you said. and there is no tangible evidence to prove that . tha sarmatians and scythians could have assimilated with anyone. even the germans. no body, not even western historians are sure of where the sarmatians went. and the sarmatians made intricate artifacts , and had cutlurally specific burial practices even if they were blood thirsty warriors . there would have been something of that in croatian culture at the time of the croat arrival to the balkans. croat legends and the pagan religion they had before christianity are typically slavic. genetic testing is very iffy. ive seen the statistics , and they basically dont show anything . they claim to show more direct links between races that have nothing to do with eachother than with races that you can link by skin color or appearance. very funny actually. actually, croats today, probably have alot of turkish blood in them. turks ruled the area for 400 years. and not just bosna. but parts of croatia also. 400 years is a long time. and if genetic testing shows anything iranian, even if the testing is credible, then its showing the turkish genes. im not going to bother to reply to "nuthead" cos basically he is a "nuthead" hahaha. by going on about croa history like i am. i am baically writing , what croats , today, with any intelectual tendancies belieave. and this is a fact. croatians politicians believe that croatian history and culture is not worth saving because it is not valued by foreigners. today, croatia has an opportunity to find its real roots. but our politicians want us in the eu. if we go into the eu , not only will we lose our country, we will lose whatever there is of croat culture. why are croats in istra so willing to become italians? has anyone asked themselves this? why ? give up croatian everything, and want to become italian? in istra? part of croatia? why is that if croatia is sooo good? give up cro history and heritage to become italian on croatian land? if croatias politicians had any feelings towards croatia, they would behave very very differently. croats , ordinary people would be at least a little nicer to eachother instead of ripping eacother off in every imaginable way. franjo toudman once said in a speech that croatians are one of the oldest people i euorpe. and hes a historian? it is patheitc that our politicians can say such things to their own people knowing that they are influential . i cant think of a people in europe who are younger than croatians. no written history before 800 ad. so where did he come up with that one? give me the facts. so if anyone has any pictures that prove to anyone that croats are from iran or that croats are one of the oldest people in europe . send me some colour pics. and not black and white drawings.
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Post by Ugursuz on Mar 29, 2005 11:15:24 GMT 1
Look - I am talking about genetics and you want a picture of a stone; what's wrong with you?
You may be in principle against the idea that Croats 'came from Iran' or that Croats 'have more persian/afghan markers than any other population in this area' but these two arguments/statements have completely different meaning. I am not saying that Croats marched from Iran to Adriatic; I am saying that Croats are NOT SLAVIC; fullstop. Actually, I am not saying anything - this is the result of genetic screening of average croatian population. We may be looking for material proofs of this genetic facts and we may have some or we may not have some (indeed, 6000 years have passed!). Not having some however, does not disaproove genetics! Capisci?? Stating that Croats are culturally 'problematic' because Istrians want to be Italians is very shallow barber-shop politicking; not a serious conversation. Most of Istrians do not want to be Italians but decades of living under Italy and also under Yugoslav politics which maintained Istria in some kind of limbo (besides maintaining 'italian' connection alive moving in thousands of Serbian officers) and isolated from the rest of Croatia left the result.
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Post by valiant 1 on Mar 29, 2005 12:56:56 GMT 1
"6,000 years have passed"!? who wasnt in iran 6.000 years ago popular cro history says that croats were in iran even at the time of alexander the great. cros today are mixed racially .the only way to figure out where cros came from, and croatian culture is to trace cultural remnents prior to 700 ad. and there basically are none of any concrete significance.other than croats having a slavic language and belief system at the time of arrival to illyria.greeks have the parthenon . egyptians have the pyramids, italians have the collosseum, croatians have ... ? diocletians palace? i dont think so . thats why id like to see some pictures of ancient croatian artifacts. whats the problem. ? its a natural desire to want to see ancient croatian artifacts if we are such an ancient people who arent slavic and come from iran. i think the artifacts would be fascinating. id love to see them. and anothe thing...the former yugoslavia is full of republics that have an identity and history problem. slavic macedonia for instance . slav macedonians dont have anything to do with greek history or alexander the great. prior to 1940 , slav macedonians didnt even call themselves macedonians. but today they even carry the ancient macedonian greek flag of a greek alexander the great macedonia.. thats like croats today calling themsleves illyrians and claiming to be the descendants of agron and teuta. what about bosnians muslims? they seem to have forgotten that they were once croats or serbs. now they have become simply muslims .bosnian muslims .if these people had a strong history and cultural and traditional background, they would not forget their cultural , racial roots, so easily. if croats arent slavic, how do you expalin the language and folklore that are slavic? the beliefs of the croats when they came to croatia were slavic. there is nothing to suggest anything iranian here .
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Post by Andypandy1 on Mar 29, 2005 13:53:56 GMT 1
Croat ancestors were Indo-Europeans, as were Germans English Indians Persians also Indo-Europeans. Note similar words for "milk" and "mother" in all these languages.
Moreover precursors to Indo-Europeans were precursors of Mongols and Negros.
So we are all one (happy!!!) family. Wouldnt think of it reading this board. I blame the parents. Adam and Eve have a lot to answer for.
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Post by Ugursuz on Mar 29, 2005 14:28:36 GMT 1
Yeaaah, that's correct, we are all Homo Sapiens. What an argument. Average German has again completely different genetic profile then average Croatian - though he is also Indoeuropean. So please, if you want to prove Croats have nothing with Iran or you want a hair from Iranian queen's backside as proof that's your problem. Being alergic to an argument (iranian/afghan) does not proove that your argument has any sense. The only reason why I'm having this discussion is because I want to say that our romantic stories about being one Slavic tribe who managed to get to the Adriatic is most probably pure and distilled nonsense.
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croam
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Post by croam on Mar 29, 2005 15:11:32 GMT 1
valiant... i wonder if you walk around croatia feeling as strong as you do on an online forumn. Probably not...that's why you spout your crap on here. I hear that australians are tough, and i believe it, but not so tough that they can walk around croatia spouting your drivel. Watch your back for the nationalists(the one's waiting for a fight or to kill someone)...they would love to hear you say that stuff.
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Post by Andypandy1 on Mar 29, 2005 15:28:59 GMT 1
Ugursuz said
Yes we are all Homo Sapiens except you who is obviously a Neaderthal if you couldnt understand my point.
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