|
Post by star on Mar 29, 2005 15:29:54 GMT 1
Valiant, genetic testing should be taken with a grain of salt. In fact, gentic studies show very little turkish markers in the croatian population. This is probably because the Turks didn't settle the area in vast numbers but used the local population for military and political administration. The Turks basically were merely the leaders, maybe 1% of the population.
Also, its possible for a population to be completely assimilated. For instance, in the 6th century there was a HUGE slavic population in Greece after they sacked Thessalonika. We know this because Greek writers said there were. But today genetic testing shows almost no trace of them, they were completely assimilated.
Ancient Greek writers also mention the slavs. Heroditus, mentions the warrior Scythians but interestingly also mentions a people he calls the "farmer scythians" in the Black Sea region. These were undoubtedly the proto-slavs.
|
|
|
Post by Ugursuz on Mar 29, 2005 16:03:59 GMT 1
I can understand you pointless point very well. Talking about languages won't take us very far because languages developed far and away from it's indoeuropean root. As far as I know, until this day linguistic historians agreed on only on one word from this prahistorical language when there were no 'many' languages. That word is 'wad' and meant 'water'. I hope you will agree with their logic. However, this means nothing in terms of our genetic ancestry which is (was) topic here.
|
|
croam
Full Member
Posts: 71
|
Post by croam on Mar 29, 2005 16:10:31 GMT 1
i agree with ugursuz... if you don't believe me read "old english" it barely makes sense. Languages change every second from a linguistic standpoint. It would be hard to understand someone communicating normally in convo with someone from 200 years ago...probably even 100 or 50 years ago, let alone 1000 years ago. So i dunno what your trying to say Valiant. Why did you leave australia valiant? Marry a croat girl? hmmmnnnnn.
|
|
|
Post by valiant on Mar 30, 2005 21:47:43 GMT 1
im trying to say that croats are slavs. thats all. the whole world knows this but croats wont admit it. so far no body has proved me wrong. i still havent seen any facts.the original illyrians of illyria were most probably the people who most assimilated into croatian slav population that may explain the genetic link , if you want to call it that . i mean if croats have iranian genes does that mean that iranians have croat genes too? ofcourse they have .from what ive seen , greeks have swedish genes, and turks have portugese genes, and so on. just look in the daily croatiuan papers, look at pics , you see typical slav faces from poland or ukraine, the language is also slavic. i dont get why you people are ignoring the obvious? whats the big deal? the slavs that assimilated into greek culture were a minority. so going by your logic, the croats who assimilated into slav culture before their arrival to illyria , existed in relatively small numbers in order to have been completely and totaly assimilated without a trace of their original culture. its obvious. heres what i think. i think that croats were a toatly slavic people on their arrival to croatia. they attacked and razed to the ground places like ancient salona and narona,. the romans fled as did the greeks. the ancient illyrians were a suppressed people under roman occupying scumbag rule but they were on their home territory with no place to go, so they didnt crap their skirts and f lee at the sight of croat barbarians as readily as the romans did. i think that the illyrians ,mixed with the slavic croats. as the illyrians and croats werent to big on dcumenting , writing about their history. there arent many records to show what exactly happened. thats why many croats, as far as im concerned look like albanians. not all croats, but maybe 30-40 % . the rest look like typical slavs.the croats on their arrival to illyria in the 7th century were stereotypical slavs of the middle ages. just check out the names of the old croat kings? the myth about uga buga muhlo and the others? the pagan beliefs? even today, there are places in croatia that have names that are old slavic.
|
|
|
Post by star on Mar 31, 2005 3:23:43 GMT 1
The problem Valiant, is that it does not correspond to the genetic data. This is the breakdown for the Croats which I lifted from another website: Eu19 (Balto-Slavenski) 29% Eu7 (Dinarsko- Vedoarijski) 45% Eu18 (Zapadni- Prakeltski) 10% HG16 (Finsko- Uralski) 0% HG2 (Altajsko-Anatolski) 9% HG9 (Avarski-Mongoloidni) 2% HG21 (Afro-Hamitski) 5% Eastern European balto-slavic type EU19 dominates in Lithuanians and in most Slavic people, with exeption of Croats, Serbs and Bulgars where it is strictly minor %. IndoIranian type EU7 dominates in Europe only in Dinaric Croats wich are connected with Afhanistan Pakistan Kashmir and Indian Sikhs , it originates from early VedoAryans The Croats contain the highest percentage of the EU7 haplotype of any other european population as far as I can tell. www.ukpoliticsmisc.org.uk/usenet_evidence/gene_legacy/
|
|
|
Post by Ugursuz on Mar 31, 2005 13:19:07 GMT 1
im trying to say that croats are slavs. thats all. the whole world knows this but croats wont admit it. so far no body has proved me wrong.
Yeah, Croats are Slavs because you learnt it in the school. Very good. Sit down. The whole history is mostly (or at least) 50% misconception and the more distant past becomes, the more it becomes a fairy tale. The fact that you believe in Fairy tale says notning about the tale itself - it says something about - you!
|
|
croam
Full Member
Posts: 71
|
Post by croam on Mar 31, 2005 16:14:57 GMT 1
id you grew up in YU you may as well forget about the portion of your history they taught you. it was propaganda
|
|
|
Post by valiant on Apr 1, 2005 17:36:43 GMT 1
arcaheological evidence. even a croat burial site in iran or afghanistan that can be linked to croats today would be convincing.,
|
|
|
Post by valiant on Apr 1, 2005 17:46:05 GMT 1
croats have 40 eu7. and germans the next highest with 37 eu7s. looks like the political link bn germany and croatia has become genetic,haha.dont you think its weird that croats have the highest numbe of eu7 and then germans. we dont look anything at all like germans in anyway. but the people who are the closest to ancient mesopotamia are unusually low in eu7 ? how do you expalin that? croats must be the ancient babylonians themsleves.
|
|
croam
Full Member
Posts: 71
|
Post by croam on Apr 1, 2005 18:03:51 GMT 1
i dunno but i do know that my facial features and that of my german professor are pretty remarkable. But i have also noticed variations in croatia amongst the people and never particularly noticed a similarity between germans and croats before.
by the way, who f**king cares where croats came from? living in the past isnt helping anyone. We should all be focused on the here and now.we have serious to take care of!
|
|
|
Post by star on Apr 1, 2005 19:33:23 GMT 1
croats have 40 eu7. and germans the next highest with 37 eu7s. looks like the political link bn germany and croatia has become genetic,haha.dont you think its weird that croats have the highest numbe of eu7 and then germans. we dont look anything at all like germans in anyway. but the people who are the closest to ancient mesopotamia are unusually low in eu7 ? how do you expalin that? croats must be the ancient babylonians themsleves. Croats have 45 eu7 and 29 eu19. Germans have 37 but 50 eu18. So that would explain the differences. Germans are dominant celtic while Croats are dominant Aryan. The second highest eu7 are the Lapps of Norway. The problem with the archaeological evidence is that the steppe corrider where all the indo-europeans migrated through had been devastated by a succession of barbarian tribes. So the whole area is confused. My theory is that the eu7 in Croats represent the indigenous peoples of the balkans, probably illyrians. The 29 eu19 represent the invading slavs from White Croatia. Who knows. ALOT more archaeology needs to be done. Croatia doesn't have the resources to do extensive research. In one book I'm reading right now it says that in the time of Yugoslavia the authorities didn't care much about it cause they didn't want to accentuate the differences between the ethnic groups. When a road was being built through an ancient grave site in dalmatia, the authorities simply dumped the remains in a landfill. Pity. I found this pdf document arguing for the Indo-Aryan origins of the croats. Its interesting but I still think the links are tenous personally: www.hindunet.org/saraswati/croats1.PDF
|
|
|
Post by valiant on Apr 2, 2005 20:51:58 GMT 1
i agree with you that the eu7 could be from the indiginous illyrians. i think that croats and serbs and all the people in bosna must have mixed with the ancient illyrians. there definately is a look that all the people of the balkans have and i attribute this to the ancient illyrians. thats my theory. but i still think that the croats on their arrival to illyria, were totaly slavic. but that theory that croats came from iran. id like to know how old that theory is. because i suspect that croat leaders made that up in ww11 .... hitler was killing jews , gypsies and also slavs. and in order for croats to be an alli to germany, they most probably had to convince germany of their iranian roots and not their slavic roots.
|
|
|
Post by star on Apr 2, 2005 21:42:11 GMT 1
The first theories of the Iranic origins of the Croats were made in 1797 by Prof. dr. Joseph MIKOCZY - BLUMENTHAL in a paper called Croats of Slavic group originated from Sarmatians descending from MediansAfter the formation of Yugoslavia in 1918 his works were destroyed and only a summary survived. You can read his and other subsequent theories here in pdf formate: www.hindunet.org/saraswati/croats2.PDFThe theory so far is the ancient Croats went through various stages in their migrations, absorbing some of the local customs in each stage: Medians->Sarmatians->Slavs->Modern Croats Or it could be simply they were pure slavs who picked up some of the language and customs of neighbouring Iranian tribe while they were in the Black Sea region. Or it could be the Croats were the iranian military elite, and pulled the surrounding slavs with them on their campaigns. We see the same scenario with the Avars who used Slav auxillaries for their raids, and the Turkic Bulgars who united with the Slavs. One example of Iranian customs is the use of colours to designate location. In old Iranian White=North, Red=South. The Croats in the Balkans used this same designation among themselves, i.e. White Croatia in Pannonia and Red Croatia in Dalmatia. The checkerboard symbolized that union. But once again, the Croats may had simply borrowed this custom while bordering the Iranians in the Black Sea region. Concrete evidence is still elusive but more and more research is being done around the sea of Azov, so we may yet see some conclusive proof.
|
|
|
Post by Ribaric on Apr 3, 2005 1:34:54 GMT 1
This is heady genetic stuff. If you come to some agreement about the DNA of the average Croat, what will you get from the answer? Is there a genetic trait which makes a difference? Will this knowledge help to determine the socio/economic/ politico decisons of governments present and future?
I'm a mongrel - part German, Irish, English, Russian and Scot. Is there a genetic trait that I should adhere to?
Or..are you arguing (I don't mean quarelling) just for the sake of it? If so, carry on.
|
|
|
Post by star on Apr 3, 2005 5:49:52 GMT 1
Heh don't get me wrong Ribaric. The genetics is just used here to try and sort out history which is far more confused than elsewhere in Europe. That's why its so much more fascinating. My prof once called Eastern European ancient history as the "final frontier" of history. If you want to make fresh and new discoveries on the ancient europeans then that's the place to be.
|
|