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Post by Old Guest on Apr 14, 2005 18:14:57 GMT 1
So can we please stop all these consiparcies and theories and just deal with real facts and real quotes. Lets make our assumptions from those. In response to comments about Gotovina, he is a war criminal just like Karadzic and Mladic, regardless of whether he was supported by the US or not. Regardless of whether Croatia was reclaming lands - it is well known that serbs who stayed behind were butchered and killed, independent reports can confirm this. It is irrelevant that he did not kill them himselves, it was under his command just like in the case of Karadzic and Mladic. The technicalities do not excuse the fact that people were slaughtered. So, technicaly lets keep spiting on Croatia and act as judges befor any court ... Well, yes "nobody cares about politics", but everybody know Gotovina is war criminal etc. tec. ... Nothing better I wasn't expecting after all ... I am courious to see who will have enough nerves to participate in this "dialogue" your way ...
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croam
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Post by croam on Apr 14, 2005 18:42:37 GMT 1
croatianserbabroad...i think its tragic that anyone was slaughtered and I find it repulsive that serbs or anyone else was brutally killed...HOWEVER...
Gotovina is an ALLEGED war criminal. He is wanted for trial...He's not guilty untill proven innocent. Also, he didn not order those killings like the serb generals did, AND the case against him is very weak, compared to all of the others that were indicted. I don't think Gotovina should turn himself in for Croatia...he already fought for Croatia. I do however think that the Croatian government should be at least making the appearance of cooperation...which they are doing a very bad job of doing. Like i said before, Gotovina owes Croatia nothing...he's already sacraficed himself for her. Mesic should at least find some scapegoats...aka "fall guys" to take the fall for Gotovina...at least that would give the EU the appearance of cooperation. Wether or not he is guilty is for the court to decide, not the public. I also think that Gotovina would not and should not turn himself over..Why? Because if he did, he would spend 8 years in jail proving his case, wether successfully or not, and what does he have to prove to anybody? He is a war hero because he risked life and limb for his country and thats alot more than alot of croatians currently in power have done or ever will do.
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Post by barba Jere on Apr 14, 2005 20:38:19 GMT 1
indictement against Gotovina does not say he ORDERED any killing. He is indicted for commanding responsability mening he did not sanctioned those who commited those crimes.
Mladić and Karadžić DID command Srebrenica masacre and ORDERED murder of those people. They DID ORDERED attack on Sarajevo and purposly COMMANDED their troops to KILL civilians.
SO much for comparation of those people and indictement.
Commanding responability and Genocide are not the same.
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Post by star on Apr 14, 2005 20:55:00 GMT 1
Please don't transfer your annoyance to the guy in the street, I'm as much a pawn to the UK government as you are to wherever you come from. I don't think anyone has. It's just that the excuses for not allowing Croatia to join are obviously bollocks which even an uneducated peasant can clearly discern. It builds resentment. You are right about the UK doing only what is in its own best interests. There is obviously a power play going on with the Balkans and Turkey being used as pawns. What the exact motivations are for some of the actions taken I have yet to figure out. Maybe they're using delays in the Balkans as an excuse to delay Turkey's entry until the issue can be resolved. I don't know, it all seems kind of surreal. Bulgaria getting in before Croatia? I would never have dreamed it.
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Post by Broj 1 on Apr 14, 2005 21:39:45 GMT 1
Britain likes Serbia more than Croatia - their (ex) royal family are living in London. British also still see Croatia as a willing member of the Nazi strategy, which Britain was obviously against.
Serbia and Croatia will probably join the EU at the same time. This would mean, though, that there would be a geographical "gap" - i.e. Bosnia.
When will Bosna join EU?
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Post by CroatianSerbAbroad on Apr 14, 2005 23:21:09 GMT 1
Need to clarify a few things here - firstly, the last post amazes me!, as mentioned one hundred times i have lived in the UK nearly all my life and i will tell you 100% that the majority of British dont even know that Croatia was part of the nazi strategy! - do you honestly believe that british people have looked at that regions involvement during something that happened over 60 years ago! - come on wake up!, Croatia is not that important to Britain.
Secondly, we will be writing about Gotovina for one hundred years whether he is innocent or not, i agree that he is innocent until proven guilty! I dont not agree that he is a hero!, a hero is the poor Croatian soldier who lost his life fighting for a free and democratic Croatia! - that is a hero!, not some fat general who is now living in luxury! But as usual the latter is always remembered!
If real hero's can give their lives for there country then why cant this man give 8 years in prison for the good of his country and its people! - i will tell you why, because he isnt a hero in my opinion. Sorry but none of them are - Gotovina, Karadzic, Mladic - they are all criminals during a criminal war.
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Post by Ribaric unplugged on Apr 15, 2005 0:09:04 GMT 1
Sorry "Number one", Like CroSerbAb said, Nobody in the UK gives a toss about Croatia, Serbia, Bosnia or anywhere else in the Balkans/South-Central Europe. The Royal family have no relevance or influence on anything, they are as important there as Tito's family are in Croatia. If anything, the Serbs are seen as pro-Russian to a small degree and are viewed as more "foreign" than Croats.
The EU powers have their reasons but, like star, I can't figure out what they may be. Also like star, I think the Turkish question and the inclusion of an islamic state is the most plausible answer. Croatia just happens to be in the wrong place at the worng time - again.
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Post by star on Apr 15, 2005 3:28:02 GMT 1
Indeed.
Turkey may be one explaination. Another may be that, other than Croatia, the other states in the western Balkans are not economically viable on their own. I heard it expressed before that the EU would like to see Croatia, Yugo and Albania form an economic cooperation before getting into the EU. Goodluck sorting that one out.
Lets face it, Serbia didn't wage a war against Slovenia and Croatia just to protect its tiny minority. Those two were the economic heart of the country which produced a staggering 80% of the GDP.
The war crimes tribunal provided a convienient scapegoat. I can't help wonder what would have happened had Mesic handed over Gotovina.
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Post by Old Guest on Apr 15, 2005 3:47:48 GMT 1
Turky is "old story" and was discussed on this forum before.
Second most imprtant issue is "regions". Inside EU proces of "regional cooperation" has started. One natural is Midle European/Mediteranian region. Croatia is in its natural heart (Austria, Slovenia, Hungaria, North Italy, Slovakia), with Adriatic sea aproach and coastile ... Those countries supported negotiations and standed for Croatia, and countries which see "economical unbalance" in regional concepts - voted against, and this is nothing new, they fight over same issue in EU parliament for last 2 years ...
Third is - when watched from perspective of West Balcans as region opposing Midle European Region, Croatia is necessery because as Start said, region can't function economicaly without it.
Fourth - Kosovo and Bosnia can be soved only if they got "frozen", reformed and then established as states inside EU. This considers a lot both Croatia and Serbia. Croatia, because 400 000 people with croatian citizenship lives in Bosnia and participate in its political processes same as in Croatias, and they staying outside EU after Croatia enters EU creates "huge hole" in EU's politcal and administrative border. When you count how "risky" Bosnia is from many aspects ... In case of Serbia, only if both Serbia and Kosovo enter EU, problem of Kosovo can be solved so Serbia will accept it ...
In this last scenario region got "connected" indirectly, but without Croatia situation gets prity unbalanced.
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Post by Old Guest on Apr 15, 2005 4:06:30 GMT 1
So, nobody say's UK doesn't have point in it's strategy. But allow Croatia to not like it.
So, no Croatia in EU for at least next 5 years (if EU solve Bosnia and Kosovo by some mirracle in this time).
Gotovina can sleep in peace, and we can keep fighting about "who has "better" war criminals, and sneakiest politics".
Obviously Croatians are only loosers, anyway. So please, give me some more "arguments" for hating myself (except this boring Gotovina), to not hate others "without arguments".
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croam
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Post by croam on Apr 15, 2005 4:21:20 GMT 1
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Post by Old Guest on Apr 15, 2005 4:29:44 GMT 1
In what way ?
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croam
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Post by croam on Apr 15, 2005 5:12:15 GMT 1
the waiting on EU part and being a pawn in some giant socioeconomic chess game
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Post by barba Jere on Apr 15, 2005 6:05:45 GMT 1
Need to clarify a few things here - firstly, the last post amazes me!, as mentioned one hundred times i have lived in the UK nearly all my life and i will tell you 100% that the majority of British dont even know that Croatia was part of the nazi strategy! - do you honestly believe that british people have looked at that regions involvement during something that happened over 60 years ago! - come on wake up!, Croatia is not that important to Britain. Please nobody asks ordenary people. They do not make policy. People in foreing office do KNOW that Croatia was part of axis in WW2 They are one making decision. Who is talking about ordenary bloke who lives in UK. Some people in foreing office dislike Croatia and like Serbia. Due to historic nostalgic reasons and also due to competition between big players in EU. They see Croatia as Germanic interest zone and their geopolitical access to souther sea as well as part of EU ready for investing (Austria and Germany are largest investors here) How many UK companies have invested here? So lets be serious not throw flosules like I live i UK and bloke in the pub doesnt know where is Croatia. Ask Dennis McShane if he knows where it is and its history.
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Post by CroatianSerbAbroad on Apr 15, 2005 9:10:55 GMT 1
Barba, politicians are normal people in the UK, elected by the people. I would agree that if you work for bodies such as the foreign office it becomes your objective to understand certain things in greater detail but why would you form an opinion that concerns future EU interest on a country based on WWII. To me personally the German axis element is irrelevant. This may form part of a bigger strategy within the EU between Germany, France and the UK but i certainly dont believe it is anything to do with WWII.
Also, people make distinction on this forum when it is convenient to them. Barba, you mention that we are not talking about the average person in the UK, but all the insults on this forum have been absolutely aimed at them as ordinary people. Why is this done?, do you all feel better thinking that their is a conspiracy against Croatia and as such like to criticise the UK for preventing Croata's destiny?
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