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Post by mambo on Aug 23, 2005 12:31:34 GMT 1
Unless you have a good idea what you want to do overhere.........don't come. As a foreigner you will not be able to find a job in any company unless you have some extremely special skills that they require.
The only way to make a living here is to start a business of your own, but for that you need money, a good idea, a very good connection in Croatia (local person etc) and a hell of a thick skin, because they will test your resolve almost daily.
I now live and work here, we founded a company and are trying to introduce a new product. So far it has taken us 2 years to get permissions and as I understand, it can take another two years or even longer. Officially we cannot produce during this time, but it would mean that we would be out of business before we had even begun, so that won't work. We will therefore produce before we will have all the permissions, because it is the only way to survive.
Good thing about Croatia ? If you open your eyes you can see business lying on each streetcorner. The Croatians have no clue what can be done here, it is lying there to be picked up by somebody. If you have the will to continue, the financial background to last without income for a certain period, but most of all the will to work extremely hard and extremely long hours then this is a nice place to live.
But don't forget, if you work in the tourism industry you will work in the summer when everybody else is lying on the beach, in fact, you will not see that beach at all.
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Post by valiant 1 on Aug 26, 2005 23:02:51 GMT 1
so you need a thick skin , a very good connection and alot of money so that you can wait 2 years for your permits? the thick skin thing irritates me the most. people who dont have anything to do with anything , crap you daily. aaaaaaaaa why is it like that ? isnt croatia in need of employment and a better economy ? why is it soooooo difficult to invest in this country??
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croam
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Post by croam on Aug 27, 2005 17:38:17 GMT 1
shouldn't have moved to a new system...that arose out of som....to make a handsome capitalist existence. is that the lands fault? the mountains? the culture? thats just the reality of it right there. reread the first sentence. look, i don't get off on others people's misery. i feel your pain.....but your blaming croatia instead of yourselves. I'm not packing my bags from the US and going to mexico to get rich. i mean, think about it.
you guys obviously left one of the capitalist meccas on the planet. why not go back, make your dough, and come back, enjoy, give a little back. instead of just asking "what can my country do for me?"
sincerely....and with no harsh feelings
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Post by mambo on Aug 28, 2005 0:13:01 GMT 1
One strange reaction I got from some goverment officials is 'I did not ask you to come to Croatia'. My only reaction then is 'sure, you did not, but your own goverment did and since you work for that goverment you should follow the policy of that goverment, whether you like it or not'.
One of the reasons that investing is difficicult is that they have complete incapable personnel at some goverment agencies. These people have no clue what the hell they are doing, cannot think logically and don't dare to take any responsibility. The favortite passtime of goverment personnel is 'how to cover your ass'.
And that last part says it all. The personnel are not interested in providing service and accomplishing anything, their only worry is how to make sure that they are never responsible, so that if things go wrong they can always claim that it was not them.
Another reason is that laws change on a regular basis and the way of publicizing laws is so incredibly stupid that nobody ever knows the law has changed. Here they don't publish laws in a logical way. Here they publish a number and it is up to you to read that complete issue to find if anything has changed for you. Needless to say that nobody reads that and this way you will find 10 opinions within one office, nobody has a clue.
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Post by noddy on Aug 28, 2005 4:03:21 GMT 1
It won't add much to the discussion, but i truly agree with both last posters with their last posts - croam and mambo. i think they look at the problem from different perspectives, but what they're both saying is very true.
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Post by irac on Aug 28, 2005 6:59:12 GMT 1
The sheer stupidity of some officials. in action, can be put down to not actually being trained in their job. God example is when we were opening a new office, we were told we'd to have an inspector out. Fine, we filled in all the papers, got everything done, including have all the paperwork done for the building, then the morning we were applying for inspection the other person in the opcina office, who'd been there the previous 4 times we'd visited (and even offered advice once or twice) was the one to whom we had to submit the papers. Fine, but then she said "Oh, you don't need this, only if you are making a shop or cafe" Maybe 3 weeks before she might have told us, but of course it wasn't her place to overrule a senior who'd been in the job longer than her (but who was a placement as she was having a good time with one of the town councillors!).
Incompetency, you can handle. Stupidity, sure, it's okay. But when you're dealing with "jobsworths" no country is safe and they never get any better.
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Post by mambo on Aug 28, 2005 10:51:00 GMT 1
Irac,
I see you have the same experience as us, thought we were the only ones, but apparently not. We are now busy for more than a year to install one simple machine and there is still no end in sight. In the Caribean we installed the same machine in 10 days, here hopefully in 10 years ! Best one I like (ehhh.........not) is something that happens continuously. I come into an office and simply ask for a piece of paper where I can find what I should documents I should give these people. That piece of paper does not exist, so it goes more or less like this:
"Ok, you will need to provide document such and such, then you will need this and that and lastly you will need to provide me with paper X. "
"Is that all I need to supply ? Any stamps from the notary, apostille, legalised or additional documents ?"
"No, that is all you need"
So I go back to the office, get that paperwork done and go back to that same office.
"Ah, good, you have the papers. But, this paper needs a few stamps, you can buy them in a kiosk, so you better come back tomorrow, because we are officially closed today"
Go out to buy the stamps, they won't let me in the office again, so next day I return.
"Good, now that we have these documents you will need to get document such and such from office Y and bring that to me".
'But you told me that these were all the documents you needed. So let me ask you again, after that document from office Y, do I need other documents ? Yes or No ?"
"Well, you will need this document from office Y, cannot do anything without it, goodbye"
And again I go out, get this document, but in order to get that document I need a piece of paper from the office I was before, because you need to request that document. Of course when I return to the first office..............they are closed, come back another day.
Basically it goes on and on and on like this, there is simply no end in sight. We thought we had all the permissions for selling, at least we were told by one inspector. So we start selling, but next day some inspector is able to tell me that we need an additional permission.
In order to get that selling permission I need to get a BUILDING PERMISSION !!!!! But to get that building permission I need to contact an architect, because for a building permission you need to make a project. He has to describe the whole building, have the electricity checked by HEP, have the water connection checked by Vodavod etc and for this he is charging 25.000 Kuna. A project like this usually takes about 8 tot 10 months and all this to be able to get a selling permission for goods that are imported and are going to be sold, more or less in transit. Best part is that the building we are in is approximately 50 years old, we supplied building permissions from 1973 and 1998 when some renovation was done, but this is not enough.
Needless to say that we have solved this problem in another way, because with this kind of procedures you cannot get anything done.
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Post by irac on Aug 28, 2005 11:00:37 GMT 1
I always find that it's almost Pythonesque. We had the same problems with registering (first) and NGO and then a Rugby Club. Each time we went to complete both something was wrong, the instructions changed and something else needed to be done. The scary thing is that we were dealing with the one woman, in Sibenik, each and every time. She's not old, she seems to be educated, and she is clever, but not matter what we tried she just messed it up. I figured, it must be my language, or misinterpretation, but when a person from our Udruga went to her, they came back with the original instructions I'd taken down and followed through.
It's never ending and even in the mayhem that is Saudi Arabia, at least you can complete a task within a set time!
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Post by mambo on Aug 28, 2005 21:06:01 GMT 1
The only way to solve the problem with the changing requirements is to ask the person in question where exactly the requirement is written in the law. Nowadays I always ask the person in question to show me that specific requirement in the applicable law. Most of the times they are unable, they are making up laws as they go. This week I caught a tax inspector making up laws and not abiding the existing laws. I had a field day, went straight to his boss and had the whole verdict overturned in less than an hour. I don't think he likes me anymore, so now we have to change the registration address of the company, otherwise this ***hole will keep making problems, not because we do things wrong, but he cannot accept his loss. It is a shame, but that is the way it is in this country. Sometimes it looks like 'banana-republic', but since I had my 'school' in the Caribbean (as corrupt as you will ever find it) I have a very thick skin and I am at least one step ahead of these idiots. I know what they are going to do before they even think of it. But it should not be like this. If they ever want to join the EU (which I don't hope) they have to clean up their act.
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Post by gmh on Aug 28, 2005 21:35:05 GMT 1
Well, I'm finally back in Croatia and I am very thankful for it! I agree that it would be difficult to move here and make a living doing regular work, but if you have good ideas and can offer something new and different, then you can do ok. I suggest that everyone should take up street performing ! Croatia needs more of it, and you can do quite well here doing it. I think in the near future there will be even more opportunities in this field.
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Post by Ghost on Aug 29, 2005 2:51:24 GMT 1
The only way to solve the problem with the changing requirements is to ask the person in question where exactly the requirement is written in the law. Nowadays I always ask the person in question to show me that specific requirement in the applicable law. Most of the times they are unable, they are making up laws as they go. This week I caught a tax inspector making up laws and not abiding the existing laws. I had a field day, went straight to his boss and had the whole verdict overturned in less than an hour. I don't think he likes me anymore, so now we have to change the registration address of the company, otherwise this ***hole will keep making problems, not because we do things wrong, but he cannot accept his loss. It is a shame, but that is the way it is in this country. Sometimes it looks like 'banana-republic', but since I had my 'school' in the Caribbean (as corrupt as you will ever find it) I have a very thick skin and I am at least one step ahead of these idiots. I know what they are going to do before they even think of it. But it should not be like this. If they ever want to join the EU (which I don't hope) they have to clean up their act. The whole problem is this. Every town, city, village is doing their own little thing. Everyone needs to be doing the same thing from the same law books. No different laws for each town, village whatever. Become UNIFORM... everything the same standards, rules, laws. That would solve alot of the messes right there. Print booklets for different things for the public. That is easily available. Like what is required for a building permit. That way when you get some of these dummies in the office you can say...... see it is here in the booklet, that is all I need. I have run into just a few situtations where I have been asked for certain papers... brought them in....only to be told I needed more.... than run around getting them and come back to office and so sorry we are closed come back tomorrow. It happens, thankfully not that often. But when it does happen... you feel like getting a gun and .........
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Post by irac on Aug 29, 2005 7:27:02 GMT 1
even when it's all written down Mambo it's still impossible to tell if the person knows what they're talking about. It would be a great help if they had a little progressive direction from Zagreb, you'd get it first as you're closer No matter what they still need to be trained better. Most barely manage to fill in a full day, long breaks, chats on mobiles (only in Saudi did I see people do that when they're serving you, but never in government offices like here). I don't know if it's a banana republic yet, the old dictator (jefe) is dead, but his cronies are still pulling the strings, maybe we need to bring in that wonderful woman Kosor can take the reins. She's done her service (I can't make fun of her path to the top) and dresses perfectly like a nazi to whip us all into shape.
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croam
Full Member
Posts: 71
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Post by croam on Aug 29, 2005 15:29:13 GMT 1
i agree with you guys about the paper pushers. these however are the lowest rungs of the government. its sad that paper pushers extend this process for eons. i really believe if the whole beuracracy could be cleaned up it would be much more enticing for foreign investors,which croatia needs, as well as income wage increase which hopefully mesic will accomplish(minimum wage).
for those of us used to much quicker systems it drives us mad sometimes. i wish i could put a gun to some of these people heads till they go in their pants and quit making problems but i can't.
FYI: notice how everytime you have to come back to the office to hand in paperwork(needed or not) its another couple hundred kuna. HINT HINT. So sad. I'll keep my assets in the US for awhile longer and spend money there on vacation. Too bad, they could have at least 22% of my profits if they would let me set up a business.
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Post by irac on Aug 29, 2005 19:25:49 GMT 1
croam, now, you gotta check it. I know you;ve professed an undying love for the country, and a disdain for those who've made it corrupt and a mess. And for foreigners who are in it for a quick buck, so maybe it's time to share those profits here and make a difference form the inside out! It might hurt at first but if you're dedicated enough you'll make changes, heck if you eventually run as an all-inclusive, progressive reformist, I'd even vote for you!
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Post by mambo on Aug 29, 2005 21:10:02 GMT 1
Irac,
It should be nice to be able to START producing ! After that we can discuss sharing profits.
Here it usually takes two to three years before you can even start producing anything, which means that you have to make an investment and subsequently hold out for three years, only because these geeks are not able to speed things up. I can already tell you that, when they don't speed up, not a lot of foreign investors will come to this country.
And sharing profit ?
If I have to pay profit taxes I think I share more than enough, we are not in charity here, neither is anybody else. Should be nice to recoup the investment before we start talking about anything else. Besides, we are providing jobs, investing money here (buildings, materials etc), so I think we have done our fair share so far. Now it is up to the goverment.
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