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Post by elaine on Sept 1, 2005 23:10:01 GMT 1
I don't think that is confined to Croatia!!!
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Post by Ghost on Sept 1, 2005 23:18:24 GMT 1
I don't think that is confined to Croatia!!! Thanks. If I say it I get accused of covering for Croatia. hahaha
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Post by mambo on Sept 3, 2005 11:14:01 GMT 1
Last week I gave the example of the papers required for the selling permission. Yesterday I went to that office to give them the following (took me a few months to assemble):
1. Building permit out of 1973 !!! (of a completely other building, since the original for our building cannot be found !). The owner of the buildings had some permits, of changes to another building, lying around, so I used them, put some 40 pages additional papers (all BS) with them. 2. Inspection report of HEP. Also this report is of another building, but if you cannot read all the technical stuff you won't find it. It uses numbers to identify cables and outlets, so you need the technical drawing in order to understand everything and needless to say that I did not provide the technical drawing.
Knowing that these papers are completely useless I asked the lady in the office if she could explain the information that was on the paper (just playing 'I am stupid'). She told me straight in my face that she did not understand it either and that she was not going to read the information at all, but..........and here it comes.............the procedure says that she needs to collect these papers and that she will do. When I asked her why, she answered: 'if I get an inspection then the file is in order'.
She never ever questioned the procedure itself, she did and does not show initiative to ask questions. Her attitude is simple, 'the book says I must do this..........then that is what I will do, without asking any questions whatsoever'.
And knowing that this is the case everywhere I have decided to refer to a very old, proven concept:
'IF YOU CAN'T BEAT THEM WITH BRILLIANCE.............BAFFLE THEM WITH BS'.
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Post by elaine on Sept 3, 2005 12:00:13 GMT 1
Works every time and everywhere!
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Post by Ghost on Sept 4, 2005 16:24:19 GMT 1
Last week I gave the example of the papers required for the selling permission. Yesterday I went to that office to give them the following (took me a few months to assemble): 1. Building permit out of 1973 !!! (of a completely other building, since the original for our building cannot be found !). The owner of the buildings had some permits, of changes to another building, lying around, so I used them, put some 40 pages additional papers (all BS) with them. 2. Inspection report of HEP. Also this report is of another building, but if you cannot read all the technical stuff you won't find it. It uses numbers to identify cables and outlets, so you need the technical drawing in order to understand everything and needless to say that I did not provide the technical drawing. Knowing that these papers are completely useless I asked the lady in the office if she could explain the information that was on the paper (just playing 'I am stupid'). She told me straight in my face that she did not understand it either and that she was not going to read the information at all, but..........and here it comes.............the procedure says that she needs to collect these papers and that she will do. When I asked her why, she answered: 'if I get an inspection then the file is in order'. She never ever questioned the procedure itself, she did and does not show initiative to ask questions. Her attitude is simple, 'the book says I must do this..........then that is what I will do, without asking any questions whatsoever'. And knowing that this is the case everywhere I have decided to refer to a very old, proven concept: 'IF YOU CAN'T BEAT THEM WITH BRILLIANCE.............BAFFLE THEM WITH BS'. I understand where you are coming from. The thing is if she does not follow the book. Do you want her making special rules for you or not following the rules for you. Then what, everyone does something different. This is what I am talking about. Everyone must follow the same rules. Why should something be different for you than for me. No matter how stupid a rule. If the rules(laws) are stupid have them changed BUT changed for everyone that is how a good government works. Not the kinda cr*p that goes on here where I have to give something you don't because you can trick her into not taking it or bribe someone. I want all the same crappy rules for everyone and if everyone does not like the laws then we work together to have them changed. When I have been in other countries. I do a specialized construction....most of it has been in the USA, especially California. I have to go down and turn in papers. The papers I turn in, most of the women that collect these papers don't have the slightest clue what the papers are about..... but they sure as heck know that they need them. If I don't have all of them.... she knows what the paper is that I don't have, even though she does not understand what the paper is or what it is about. That is how that state is so organized, everyone from Los Angeles to Cresent City all follow the same rules. The only thing that changes sometimes from city to city are small things that have to do with appearance. Everyone follows the same building procedures, everyone aquires property the same way.
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Post by davidzg on Sept 4, 2005 16:38:01 GMT 1
It just struck me that you work in construction, and many of these commerical buildings are probably for foreigners yet you don't want foreigners in Croatia.
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Post by Ghost on Sept 4, 2005 16:56:28 GMT 1
I am not in the kind of construction that you think.
I have made almost every dollar I have outside of Croatia and spent almost every dollar in Croatia.
No I don't have a problem with foreigners. I just have a problem with GREEDY, SELF-CENTERED PEOPLE, be it foreigner or Croatian.
Why should anyone snatch up property from desperate people and use it to make a profit.
Why should anyone that rents out property not pay taxes, just because they don't want to.
Why should anyone be allowed to build illegally on property.
Why should anyone that is not a citizen dictate what the laws of Croatia should be & demand they be changed to make things easier for themselves.
Not follow laws or find ways around laws in order to cheat the system.
Why should anyone that just holidays here, push their selfish agenda's down citizens of this country's throat.
If a person is respectful and follows the rules. I have no problem with that person.
Just as I don't go into other countries. Yell and scream about their laws and demand change and call the natives stupid/communists/backwards/nation of liars/greedy....and everything else. I don't go around trying to change the laws to make things easier for myself or go around them illegally.
Have respect for the places you visit or now call home.
So as you see I don't have a problem with anyone if they are decent and respectful of the place they live or visit.
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Post by davidzg on Sept 4, 2005 16:59:30 GMT 1
I am not in the kind of construction that you think. I have made almost every dollar I have outside of Croatia and spent almost every dollar in Croatia. No I don't have a problem with foreigners. I just have a problem with GREEDY, SELF-CENTERED PEOPLE, be it foreigner or Croatian. Why should anyone snatch up property from desperate people and use it to make a profit. Why should anyone that rents out property not pay taxes, just because they don't want to. Why should anyone be allowed to build illegally on property. Why should anyone that is not a citizen dictate what the laws of Croatia should be & demand they be changed to make things easier for themselves. Not follow laws or find ways around laws in order to cheat the system. Why should anyone that just holidays here, push their selfish agenda's down citizens of this country's throat. If a person is respectful and follows the rules. I have no problem with that person. Just as I don't go into other countries. Yell and scream about their laws and demand change and call the natives stupid/communists/backwards/nation of liars/greedy....and everything else. I don't go around trying to change the laws to make things easier for myself or go around them illegally. Have respect for the places you visit or now call home. So as you see I don't have a problem with anyone if they are decent and respectful of the place they live or visit.So you paid all your taxes outside of Croatia, huh? tut tut. But hey Ghostie, I love your style I wish they all could be Californian I wish they all could be Californian I wish they all could be California girls.
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Post by mark2 on Sept 5, 2005 18:30:51 GMT 1
Quote: A)Why should anyone snatch up property from desperate people and use it to make a profit. QUOTE: B)Why should anyone that rents out property not pay taxes, just because they don't want to Answer: A) There are still extremely poor and desperate people in Croatia, They will state a price for their house and that is it! any profit is welcome because it makes them rich in the current scheme of things. ANSWER: B) If someone owns or lives in Croatia, they should pay taxes for rental, for friends staying etc...How can someone complain, as they do, about roads or garbage, when they are not putting back into the country!
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Post by mambo on Sept 5, 2005 21:58:52 GMT 1
Ghost,
I was not talking about property or something like that. I am talking about an industrial area where we rented just a part of an existing factory building. In fact, that building has been there for 50 years, was abandoned and now it is in use again.
The space we are in has been in use for industry and now is again in use for industry. The only difference is that our machines are not the same as the ones that were in there. This should not be a problem at all, since the designation is industry in an industrial zone.
But since our machines are not the same as the old ones we have to provide all the building permissions, inspections etc. Does that make any sense to you ? It doesn't to me, I am sorry.
And if I want a permission to sell our product, for which we have a license to produce, I need to go to a different office and show up with different papers. Not the same permissions and documents for producing, no.......you need other ones.
What do they think ?
We will produce something and then we will.................throw it away ? We are registered for production, distribution and selling, which means that we want to produce a product, market it, distribute it and sell it. Can't be anymore simple.
And we do all from the same space, so why not have one permission for all activities ?
So, my remark has nothing to do with real estate, I am not in that business, we are industry and even there they make it difficult to get something done. But at the same time they would like us to provide jobs.
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Post by Ghost on Sept 6, 2005 7:47:07 GMT 1
Mambo.
I am not just talking about real estate. I am also talking about construction and laws for everything from building a home to building a factory to what is acceptable pollution levels in a factory and so on.
Look the government may have had different laws for the former business and building you have.
Maybe the factory use to produce food and there was little or no pollution produced at that time for that factory.
Now say the laws have changed on say pollution, noise levels for the area, waste. Maybe the laws are stricter for new types of factory machines.
Which they should be for the safety of the worker, the public and the enviroment.
Now you come in and want to produce say golf balls. Maybe this way of making golf balls produces certain waste and noise levels that are now not allowed in this area, which maybe 50 years ago would have been acceptable.
So just because a factory had machines in there when you bought it and you want to change the machinary to something new and better it does not mean that it should not have inspections.
one more example. God forbid.
Say you do open this factory and you install machinary and my friend goes to work there and lose's an arm in the machinary because it was not installed correctly or no one inspected it to see if it was safe. I think my neighbor should be able to sue you and the country for not making sure that a factory had inspections to see if everything was up to government standards and laws.
Any where you go in the world. There are laws that have to be followed. You can't just open something up and make something without inspections.
If you tried doing the same thing you are doing here in Croatia in any other country they would be inspecting your factory, its equipment and the safety of the workers and also you would have several different depts of the government overseeing your business. Health Safety for workers enviromental effects so on and so on..... that is life when you have a business.
In the construction I do. We had a problem with Germany. They did not want us using a certain product to finish our work. They did not know the safety of the product in area's with not good ventilation. These were our workers not German workers. They did not care nor did they believe us when we said it was safe and had done it a thousand times the same way. That was the German government. Guess what we had to go out and purchase high power fans for more adequate ventilation. It cost us a lot of money but that is how it goes. Well now we use the fans all the time, so no big deal. You move on.
The government is there for the safety of the people. I honestly could not say if I would feel safe if the government did not inspect business.
If it was left to the business owner to make sure everything was safe or laws are being followed I would not feel very safe in my country.
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Post by mambo on Sept 6, 2005 11:10:42 GMT 1
Ghost,
You still don't get it.
That there are inspections is OK, there should be inspections and THERE ARE inspections. For our plant we deal with sanitary, vodavod, HEP, worksafety, police/firebrigade, pressure vessels, commune, enviromental etc.
I had one guy of worksafety pass by with regulation JUS M E 7.106 X 1969. He explained everything to me, most of it was pretty standard, in fact I was able to explain him some additional safety features that we were installing.
So that part, with all the inspectors is quite logic.
This is all pretty standard, but here comes the catch. Nothing is written down on paper, no guidelines (other than the law) exist and the law is open to many different interpretations. That gives inspectors the chance to do what they want.
We work with pressure vessels and they need to be tested. Sounds normal doesn't it ? Well, first we had to test everything at 21 bar, but regulations state that we have to test at 16 for the high pressure side and 13.5 for the low pressure side. Unfortunately this inspector did not want that and demanded 16.5 for everything (we were actually standing there and negotiating, he said 21 I said 13, he said 17, I said 13.5 and 15, he said 16.5 and that was the last 'offer'). Then I showed him that the low pressure side was not allowed to have this pressure. So he basically stated 'ok, then I won't accept your machines'. Next I find his former boss and teacher (the guy now has a company advising on work safety) and he passed by, showed me the law, called the inspector and now all of a sudden we can do 16 and 13.5 bar again.
The above is written in a few sentences, but in reality this whole deal took almost 5 months !
The permission I was talking about in a prior post is also different. If we already made a project, did a civil engineering part in which the building is described and in which all vital parts of the building are mentioned, in which calculations are made with regard to strength etc can you then explain me why that part is not acceptable for the lady who only gives the permission to sell our own product ? What does selling our product have to do with the construction of our building or the electricity connections. We have HEP and other inspectors for that part, not this lady.
And that is the point I am trying to get across. It is the fact that people are trying to sit at somebody elses desk, the person for pressure vessels is not responsible for sanitary regulations or for electricity regulations. He wants it this way, next comes sanitary who wants it in a different way and lastly the guy for electricity wants it different again. So who is right ? Who do you have to follow, because you cannot follow all three of them ?
At the commune I have to pass our contract of lease (in English and Croatian), this can be without stamp of a notary. The lady for the permission to sell our products wants that contract with a stamp and the office next to her even wants it legalised. One commune..............three different rules.
That my friend is the problem here and not the fact that there are inspections.
I hope you now understand the problem of Croatia, nobody knows what he/she is doing and they make up rules and laws as they go.
But best of all ?
Once you have passed the inspections you will never see them again ! The area where we are is such that if I would take all these inspectors, walk them around for an hour, all of them would lose their license in one second. Here they preach regulations, preach safety, but don't live it. Everything is designed with just one thing in mind 'HOW TO COVER MY OWN ASS'.
It doesn't matter if things go wrong, if it goes wrong and people die then that is fine........as long as it is no the responsibility of the inspector.........they don't care.
Prevention of accidents ? Never heard of.
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Post by Ghost on Sept 6, 2005 18:04:19 GMT 1
Like I said in a previous post Mambo.
I understand where you are coming from.
That is why I keep telling you. It is our president & pm's responsiblity to standardize and make all laws/regulations THE SAME EVERYWHERE in Croatia.
If all the laws and all the forms for business were the same and everyone was informed that they had to follow certain procedures. Do you think this would be happening to you.
Do you really think that it is the little twit in the offices fault or the inspectors. NO, it is the people on top that have kept this mess going for over 10 years now!
They don't want to change anything to be standardized like I said so they can steal right under your nose but mean while you are to worried about how you are going to get your inspection done.
People like to blame the little ant worker but it is not the little ant worker that is to be blamed.
Take for example what is happening in the USA.
Everyone was very upset about what was happening after big storm. People dieing from lack of water/food/injury. Guess what... was it the fault of the little ant worker or the big king ant (Bush). I know that is silly but when it comes down to it. The country is running like cr*p because of Mesic/Sand are not doing their jobs. They are toooo busy filling their pockets for a big fat healthy retirement.
I laugh at how some people say, some people get their jobs from relatives and they are not qualified or the person working there is really old.... you know what... that happens everywhere and countries run just fine because everything is running fine at the top and everyone is following same regulations. A relative can learn to file paperwork an old person can be taught new procedures......
These inspectors that you had.... hey if there is not one book or guide line to follow what do you expect. If there was one book that all inspectors have to follow & business owners have to follow this cr*p would not be happening to you.
And I still feel fairly safe that our country has pretty good inspections, especially when it comes to food and the food industry. If not then a lot of us would be very sick....mad cow, diseased meat, bad sanitation in food factory. I just don't see evidence that there is NOT inspections. Plus other countries would not be allowing our food products into their countries if we did not have some kind of standard.
Mambo, Maybe you can do something. Always have the book of regulations in hand if there is one at all. If there is no book. Then complain to the president. Write a letter. If everyone started complaining to one place (president) then maybe things would change.
I have written a letter, no reply back. If I ever get one I will let you know.
I honestly don't see change with this president. We need someone not influenced by greed. A president that wants to make Croatia great for all of it's citizens. I am tired of talk.... I want action.
Good luck to you Mambo. May your business take off and flourish!!!!
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Post by MidgeZg on Sept 6, 2005 20:32:19 GMT 1
It is our president & pm's responsiblity to standardize and make all laws/regulations THE SAME EVERYWHERE in Croatia. I thought it was the Croatian Parliament that was vested with the legislative power.
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