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Post by Ghost on Aug 30, 2005 0:48:08 GMT 1
Nothing will change as long as you have dumb and dumber still in charge.
Get the 2 biggest crooks out of government and we have a shot of things happening soon.
Right now it is taking a slugs pace to have anything change.
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Post by Micky on Aug 30, 2005 8:47:14 GMT 1
I have calculated the Cro Gov. are losing £5 million per year on lost interest on property tax due to delaying issuing of papers (which is merely 1 minute rubber stamping as all checks have been performed). 1 person could do it. And then they complain how poor they are!!
If they are that lazy, I will do it for a tenth of that salary. Maybe they are just stupid too.
I suggest people write to their respective ambassadors in Croatia.
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Post by Ghost on Aug 30, 2005 19:17:57 GMT 1
I have calculated the Cro Gov. are losing £5 million per year on lost interest on property tax due to delaying issuing of papers (which is merely 1 minute rubber stamping as all checks have been performed). 1 person could do it. And then they complain how poor they are!! If they are that lazy, I will do it for a tenth of that salary. Maybe they are just stupid too. I suggest people write to their respective ambassadors in Croatia. Ohhh you have it all wrong. It is not stupidity.... it is corruption. If they keep this circus going the more they can line their large pockets with. Why do you think Mesic & Sandman keep it that way..... in all the confusion they are robbing us blind. Like a magic trick distract here so you can hide there ;D
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Post by mambo on Aug 30, 2005 21:56:03 GMT 1
It has nothing to do with corruption, it has everything to do with too complicated procedures and inadequate training of personnel. What, for **ck sake, does the person, who issues selling permits, has to do with an inspection report of HEP (Electricity company) ?? And what do they have to do with a building permisssion ? If I want to sell from my home I can also do that ? And what does the tax office have to do with papers from the register ? Why do I have to explain the construction of the building if I want to build up a machine in an existing industrial area that was built 50 years ago ? Things like this make these procedures last for ages, since they are looking at the papers one offfice AFTER the other, not at the same time.
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Post by no its not on Aug 30, 2005 22:27:42 GMT 1
I have calculated the Cro Gov. are losing £5 million per year on lost interest on property tax due to delaying issuing of papers (which is merely 1 minute rubber stamping as all checks have been performed). 1 person could do it. And then they complain how poor they are!! If they are that lazy, I will do it for a tenth of that salary. Maybe they are just stupid too. I suggest people write to their respective ambassadors in Croatia. INCORRECT STATEMENT: If you pay the 5% purchase tax when it is due (after acceptance by MFA) there is no interest payable. You may be trying to say that they are missing out on the 5 million revenue.
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Post by ghostwriter on Aug 31, 2005 18:30:25 GMT 1
It has nothing to do with corruption, it has everything to do with too complicated procedures and inadequate training of personnel. Things like this make these procedures last for ages, since they are looking at the papers one offfice AFTER the other, not at the same time. See my friend you have it all wrong. Why do they keep it complicated, why do they not make everything uniform so everyone is doing the same thing and following the same rules. Would it not be easy to organize everyone and train everyone the same way. YES. The problem is organization opens the door to less corruption. Complications, disorganization, no uniformity equals to CORRUPTION at all levels. The (mesic & sandman) is skimming the cream while you are trying to bat the flies & the cats away while walking thru thick mud with your jug of fresh milk trying to get to the house. I know it sounds funny but I think that is why they don't do an over haul on all the laws and get everyone to follow the same laws and organize everything it makes it easier to steal. Everyone is complaining about the problems and it takes focus off the stealing. Maybe I am wrong, it just seems to me it would not be that hard to organize everything. People complain all the time about HR workers in the government and how they can't lose their job so they don't care. The same thing in the US and UK. Government workers are almost impossible to get rid of. The only way to really get rid of a worker in the US government is if they are caught stealing in front of your eyes and still their government works pretty well when it comes to organization of laws and everyone doing the same thing.
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Post by mambo on Aug 31, 2005 20:40:34 GMT 1
Ghost,
If the people would be corrupt I would be able to buy them and so far that has not succeeded. Not directly and not indirectly, believe me, we have tried everything.
What you have to remember is that in the old days (Tito) everything and everyone was followed by the 'security police'. If you would say something negative about Tito it would not take long before people would show up at your home.
During that period they devised these procedures to discourage people to start their own business. They simply thought 'if we make the procedure almost impossible, people will give up' and that is 100 % true. After the death of Tito the political arena maybe changed, but not the way people did business. In fact, in some offices you will find people who were already there 20 to 30 years ago and they are proud to tell you that. I know from experience that you cannot change the way someone thinks or someone behaves if he has been trained in a communist system. They are simply taught not to think at all and they will abide by this. Your own US military is like that as well. You have personnel sitting at a desk, not able and not allowed to think for themselves, they just follow orders and they won't deviate at all. And when the boss is not there, they will not take a decision, they will simply leave it for what it is, hope that the problem will go away by itself (and if they wait long enough.......it will).
So it is not only Croatia where there is bureaucracy, but they made it their trademark. And of course, there will be corruption at some levels, but that is everywhere. If you want to see real corruption...............go to latin america or to the far east, they made an art of it.
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Post by Ghost on Aug 31, 2005 20:49:55 GMT 1
I do not live in the us. I have relative that live there and one that works for government there and told me about how it is hard to fire government worker because of union.
Believe me you can buy your paper work here it happens. Not as much as some people say but it happens. You act like it is so terrible here and everything is impossible for you to do.
Maybe it is because you are a foreigner. I don't know but I don't run into half the trouble that all you foreigners keep talking about. My family and extended family here same thing. Occasional bribes requests but mostly just a few paperwork messy and things are done.
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Post by Ghost on Aug 31, 2005 20:52:05 GMT 1
Also there is more corruption at the top of the heap. Where big money deals go down.... you buy my product for your government run business we give you kick back... that kind of thing.
Not so much corruption with us little folk ;D
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Post by quest on Aug 31, 2005 21:10:09 GMT 1
Ghost, If the people would be corrupt I would be able to buy them and so far that has not succeeded. Not directly and not indirectly, believe me, we have tried everything. What you have to remember is that in the old days (Tito) everything and everyone was followed by the 'security police'. If you would say something negative about Tito it would not take long before people would show up at your home. During that period they devised these procedures to discourage people to start their own business. They simply thought 'if we make the procedure almost impossible, people will give up' and that is 100 % true. After the death of Tito the political arena maybe changed, but not the way people did business. In fact, in some offices you will find people who were already there 20 to 30 years ago and they are proud to tell you that. I know from experience that you cannot change the way someone thinks or someone behaves if he has been trained in a communist system. They are simply taught not to think at all and they will abide by this. Your own US military is like that as well. You have personnel sitting at a desk, not able and not allowed to think for themselves, they just follow orders and they won't deviate at all. And when the boss is not there, they will not take a decision, they will simply leave it for what it is, hope that the problem will go away by itself (and if they wait long enough.......it will). So it is not only Croatia where there is bureaucracy, but they made it their trademark. And of course, there will be corruption at some levels, but that is everywhere. If you want to see real corruption...............go to latin america or to the far east, they made an art of it. Best post I've read here . Corruption is a small problem compared to the complexity of the system which requires people to think a lot and that's something they are not taught to do. And they are not being educated.
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Post by ghostwriter on Sept 1, 2005 8:28:05 GMT 1
Are you suggesting that the average American government worker is smarter than the average Croatian government worker?
I am telling you it has nothing to do with complexity's of the job.
We have the same kind of doctors, dentists, accountants, teachers, street sweepers as any other country.
Do you honestly think the man or women at the office is stupid or uneducated because she/he tells you to come back tomorrow with a different paper or closes the doors early... No, actually she/he is being quite selfish nothing to do with education. They probably figure.... I don't make that much money why should I work my b*tt off for this person. It is just another form of corruption. Not working for what you are being paid to do.
I am also sure what you are saying about some people having that old way of thinking is probably true too BUT I do believe the majority of problems are do to the disorganization that mesic & sandman like to keep.
Please tell me in the last 12 years or so Why the government could not organize the country better. Like I have said before.... from Tudjie to messy mesic and sandman they are to busy stealing to fix the country. They don't want change..... if they did... it would be done by now!
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Post by davidzg on Sept 1, 2005 9:23:10 GMT 1
Are you suggesting that the average American government worker is smarter than the average Croatian government worker? Definitely, I am not referring to doctors top end administrators or other highly educated individuals. However the typical face to face, government official who in reality does not have a great deal of authority but is responsible for taking paperwork to the next level. The job requirements must have read something long these lines, Lazy, rude, stupid person required to frustrate others, as part of your job you will be expect to delay an already slow process to cover up the fact that the system cannot cope with the work load. Your stupidity will be so acute that you will not realise that we want you to be slow, as we cannot cope, your dishonesty will be so extreme that you will demand bribes thus many people will give up and the system once again becomes less congested. A lot of people in Croatia speak English; at a guess I would say 80% of people under 30 speak English. I would suggest that approximately 50% of people under 45 and only the highly educated or those who lived abroad after that. This is a huge number of people, English is the international language of the world, whether people agree to that or not, many foreigners will speak English as their second language. It is normal for a Czech businessman and a German businessman to have a meeting in English. Could somebody explain to me then why the clerk for foreigners in Zagreb, cannot speak a word of anything other than Croatian? Me sir..me sir..It’s because the people at the top need the system to run slowly so they can cope thus they employ the most stupid people they can find to ensure everything runs slowly.
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midge
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Post by midge on Sept 1, 2005 11:04:36 GMT 1
Could somebody explain to me then why the clerk for foreigners in Zagreb, cannot speak a word of anything other than Croatian? Me sir..me sir..It’s because the people at the top need the system to run slowly so they can cope thus they employ the most stupid people they can find to ensure everything runs slowly. There are many reasons as to why it happens. Yeah it's amazing. I suppose everyone wants a little something, as an additional stimuli...corruption as we all know it's widespread and hard to exterminate. It has become a part of tradition, and habits die hard. I think it will improve in the next 10-20 years. There is not a tree in Heaven that is higher than the tree of patience Also, young people do speak English, but so many clerks are 40+ and don't speak any English, maybe some German.
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irac2
New Member
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Post by irac2 on Sept 1, 2005 15:56:45 GMT 1
David put it well and clear, it's not simply the get out of poor leadership, it is incompetency at the lower levels, plus a fact that many civil servants I know are political appointees without the qualifications and ability to be there. It's usual after a country emerges from outside rule and the "loyal" servants are rewarded with cushy numbers and good pay. Has anyone ever seen a civil servant here work a full day and not take a vrey liberal coffee break?
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Post by davidzg on Sept 1, 2005 16:01:04 GMT 1
David put it well and clear, it's not simply the get out of poor leadership, it is incompetency at the lower levels, plus a fact that many civil servants I know are political appointees without the qualifications and ability to be there. It's usual after a country emerges from outside rule and the "loyal" servants are rewarded with cushy numbers and good pay. Has anyone ever seen a civil servant here work a full day and not take a vrey liberal coffee break? I agree with you but what my angle is, the not so stupid people at the top put the stupid people at the bottom there on purpose. Firstly so they can blame them for the mess,and secondly Croatia bosses like stupid people who admire them.
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