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Post by Mirko1 on Feb 27, 2005 15:07:39 GMT 1
The North reference is one that emerged a few years ago when London were hinting at complete indepence for the 6 counties, "Nationalists" and "Loyalists" objected alike, and these two wonderful groups of true and honest peoples were given the following options in a TV debate: for the Nationalists, if you want to be in a Republic so much, and no longer live under London ..... Mate, Northern Ireland is a complex problem and the more I think, the more confused I get. But, I think that the Catholics were always and still are second class citizens there.
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Post by Old Guest on Feb 27, 2005 15:46:23 GMT 1
Im sure there is space for improvement but on the other hand we can not blame the government for everything can we? Im sorry but I was in Croatia in 1990 and I remeber that it all starded very simmilar like this. Same claims. RSK a Repubic. Those who have been burned once blow even on cold. I see this a provocation and I do not think that is a accident its happening at this momment when Croatia is the weakest. How come they didnt do it straight after Oluja? That would be more understanable timing. Or when Tudjman was dead? Now when Serbs are actually returning and some of their property is being reconstructed Slowly but its happening, Now when one of those councillors Stanimirovic is a COALITION partner with HDZ now those people are forming this government. Im sorry but i do not want to underestimate them and their intentions. In our case it is hard to blame anybody else except our goverment. Since we have only one goverment, unlike this "clowns" in Belgrade. Only paralel with 1990 I can see is that Croatian Serbs politicaly havent moved their heads "from Serbian mud", and are naively looking for oportunity to blackmail Croatia. But this is all I can see. Bunch of same "clowns", but this time without any serious support from anybody, screaming from Serbia which is completly defeated and isolated. More people in Serbia have their jobs and are depending of Croatian capital then from those insignificant "clowns". So, I wouldn't compare situation even in my worse dreams - with 1990. I said before that most important for Serbs in Croatia is - to accept fact that they was defeated, in package with "ideas" some of them are still following, but can't articulate any more - because it is not 1990. "Goverment in exsile" simple can't organize Serbian "rebelion" inside Croatia like Miloshevic did at 1990. ... First, because they are proven cowards, and they won't move their asses from Belgrade (this is why they apeal on EU. But EU is not Miloshevic) ... Second, population of Serbs in Croatia experienced their leadership before, and maybe they are in some points politicaly irration, but I don't think that they are - insane to follow this clowns ... This clowns are in panic of Croatia entering EU. But unfortunately, so far our own goverment is their best alie. Considering their "Croatian citizenship" ... you are right in this part. If Serbia is giving legal and political permition and media support for such foreign citizens to organize in such direction on their teritory, it is obvious act against "friendship"with our country. But, at another hand Serbia has great problems in attempts to politicaly exsist "on its own" so they are looking how to drag anybody "willing" to join their own "mud". And without underestimating anybody, but Serbia is far from beeing independent and stable country, with have NATO in backyard. For now our goverment haven't started any diplomatic actions. It only used this "published cirus" for promoting our "national determination and bright history related to Ante Gotovina" ... and blah, blah ... same ... blah same blah blah ... same. I would stop blaming our goverment for everything when I find that something (anything) was published after they taked some (any) political action, and not before, or just because something was published. This way as Sanader is "leading" country , me and you could run it - I will read half of newspapers, you will read other half, and then we will read political magazines on weekend. And after we find out from newspapers what is going on with our country, at monday we will - publish some statement ... And then - keep reading.
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Post by Barba Jere on Feb 27, 2005 16:34:02 GMT 1
im sorry i thought in 1990 that we are not going to have war. i thought its impossible.
Im not saying Serbs will start some rebbelion now in Croatia but they are poving that they do not want to be loyal citisens and will drag Croatia in to their mud. and on the other hand we have to play as EU wants us welcoming Serbs back.
Im telling you this will be another obstacle to EU if Gotovina case is solved.
and you know what? I havent seen a nation that is criticising itself so much as we do. Always something wrong.
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Post by irac on Feb 27, 2005 17:03:15 GMT 1
I agree with old guest that Zagreb should lead from the front and not behind issues that they know are covering over their inability to prove anything other than the same old lazy bunch of cowards that they were last time they were in office. There's been nothing on Euronews or in the mainstream press or tv or radio in the english speaking EU, okay, that's only really 2 countries, about this exile government, that's because there is no significance given to them, unlike back in 1990 and 91 when the breakaway group were given some form of legitimacy. Belgrade cannot support this group of exiles, and they know that if they were to attempt to the aid money trickling in from the US and UK would disappear, and the US would drop a few cowardly bombs on their way to the middle east. The orthodox segment of the Croatian population have no time for this nonsense, they see that the only way forward to continue being happy in their homeland, not looking to opportunists who wish to drag the region into conflict again.
The north is pretty much on par with the region I think, Mirko, you have extremists on two sides bleating at each other, one bunch trying to hang onto some sort of historical (however false or mythologised) "rights" and the other trying to build their nationhood out of humiliating others. What they have to realise is, that as soon as both countries enter the EU they'll be all one nation and have to suffer the same as the rest of the EU does with autocrats in Brussels with no mandate telling them what to do but at least they give money ;D
And every nation whines about itself, and thnks that they are alone in the world for doing so, the same as the way each nation feels that it knocks it's successful people more than anywhere else. Complaining about one's country is a right (unwritten but important all the same), as is knocking down those who have been successful. For the longest time the bigger critics and haters of U2 were in Ireland, given half the chance they'd emerge again!
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Post by Old Guest on Feb 27, 2005 17:17:49 GMT 1
im sorry i thought in 1990 that we are not going to have war. i thought its impossible. Im not saying Serbs will start some rebbelion now in Croatia but they are poving that they do not want to be loyal citisens and will drag Croatia in to their mud. and on the other hand we have to play as EU wants us welcoming Serbs back. Im telling you this will be another obstacle to EU if Gotovina case is solved. and you know what? I havent seen a nation that is criticising itself so much as we do. Always something wrong. Avoiding "refugee" problems to be solved in general (same Croats and Serbs), brought us to such situation where it escalated from simple technical into complicated political issue. This aproach opened space for anybody to put us under preassure, especialy EU. Legaly it is all about Croatian citizens, but politicaly it is still about "us" and "them". We should decide (when we didn't so far) about this things before we decide in what direction we see our country going (EU, or new Balcan union). But then allow this concept to "not be compatible" with EU. And if it is compatible with Serbian, then most fair for us to stop acting "arogant and offended" and accept our political reality. It is only our choice. We can't sit on two chairs at same time, as much as it sounds "possible" from our political perspective. I don't think "we" Croats critisize "ourselves". "Myself" never taked anything illegaly, never hated anybody on national or religious basis, and don't feel emotional connection with any criminal or murderer, because "we share same God, blood and land". People never critisize "just for fun". They enjoy their lifes if they have them, and plan future - if there is something to plan. Critisizm starts when past is offered as most "obvious" option for - future. And only direction - backwards.
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Post by Old Guest on Feb 27, 2005 17:46:42 GMT 1
Then the law should be changed! The UK has cancelled Guantanamo prisoners' passports, although they have done nothing against the UK. Why to change lows, when exactly this same lows give Croataian public prosecutor clear opportunity to put charges over those persons, only by following Croatian lows. Compatible with lows in all democratic world, in such cases. Or we still rather prefere fabrication of "outside enemies" (Tito's school) and only worry for them to be safe and kicking, so we can balance fear in country and keep "following our leaders on possible road to hell" ? There is simple solution available. But have you sow any legal actions in this direction so far ?
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Post by irac on Feb 27, 2005 18:13:02 GMT 1
Very well put old guest, it is clearly a case of us and them and of leaders manufacturing reasons to keep the population worried. Just take a look at the US. Bush's government was up to it's neck in corruption, scandal, a collapsed economy and the worst regarded president that I can remember, on top of that he never won the election and was bribed and cheated into office. So what happens, a friend of the Bush family attacks the US and off they go. Everyone's afraid of someone else and they forget that the government is ripping off the populace.
I do believe Sanader has some decency about him, and that he is a good person. His wife and he have been active, below the surface, in reaching out to all Croats and she is the leading light in promotion of archaeology and culture in the country (probably, mainly, through nagging her Hubby ;D at bed time). But the Croat government need to do all they can to remove barriers for any objection. Look at it this way, what woujld happen if the Palestinian Arabs took a leaf or two out of Ghandhi's book? If instead of blowing themselves up, just had massed peaceful marches, sit downs, strikes, if the Israelis did what they always do, there would HAVE to be intervention. Same for Croatia, make some bold statements about continuing to make the country a place for all to live in. DO their d**nedest and be seen to do so, of catching all those wanted for war crimes, and get back the former Bush people who ran the 2003 election campaign to make sure the country is onthe front of every newspaper, magazine and to the forefront of the media all over the world in showing off that a mixed society in the region can work. Then, and only then, can they pick and choose whether or not they want to go to the EU or initiate a new Balkans Union.
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Post by Old Guest on Feb 27, 2005 18:19:06 GMT 1
Very well put old guest, it is clearly a case of us and them and of leaders manufacturing reasons to keep the population worried. Just take a look at the US. Bush's government was up to it's neck in corruption, scandal, a collapsed economy and the worst regarded president that I can remember, on top of that he never won the election and was bribed and cheated into office. So what happens, a friend of the Bush family attacks the US and off they go. Everyone's afraid of someone else and they forget that the government is ripping off the populace. I do believe Sanader has some decency about him, and that he is a good person. His wife and he have been active, below the surface, in reaching out to all Croats and she is the leading light in promotion of archaeology and culture in the country (probably, mainly, through nagging her Hubby ;D at bed time). But the Croat government need to do all they can to remove barriers for any objection. Look at it this way, what woujld happen if the Palestinian Arabs took a leaf or two out of Ghandhi's book? If instead of blowing themselves up, just had massed peaceful marches, sit downs, strikes, if the Israelis did what they always do, there would HAVE to be intervention. Same for Croatia, make some bold statements about continuing to make the country a place for all to live in. DO their d**nedest and be seen to do so, of catching all those wanted for war crimes, and get back the former Bush people who ran the 2003 election campaign to make sure the country is onthe front of every newspaper, magazine and to the forefront of the media all over the world in showing off that a mixed society in the region can work. Then, and only then, can they pick and choose whether or not they want to go to the EU or initiate a new Balkans Union. Unfortunately "Balcans union" is initiating and forming itself with such aproach, infront of our eyes, and with "our" support and blessing (you don't need to scream devils name to call him). Of course, latter we will cry and blame others, like we allways do. Said how we are able to run from one extreme into other.
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Post by bee on Feb 27, 2005 18:42:34 GMT 1
I can't believe someone is comparing Croatia to Rumania.
Croatia is no where near the human rights violations that Rumania has or does.
Romania caters to the sex slave industry! It is unbelieably disgusting what is going on there pedophiles frequent that country, you don't see that going on openly in Croatia! The children of romania are being used like dirty rags for pedophiles and as they get older (women) are sold as slaves.
Russia is also a big time human traffiker!
Croatia is in no way near or close to the crimes committed by Romania.
I think Romania should not be allowed into EU!
To Compare Croatia to Romania is ludicrious!
Also I say take those stupid serbs, Croatian passports and ID.
Croatia is doing a pretty good job at letting Serbs back into the country and giving back properties. I believe we are doing a better job than other countries did after war. Eu does not have problem with us on that subject of letting serbs back in, they use to, but not anymore because we have been letting them back in.
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Post by irac on Feb 27, 2005 20:37:17 GMT 1
Bee, you said it in one, you don't see eh sex industry "openly" in Croatia. sadly it is one of the worst in Europe and used as a major entrepot to the EU. Now that Slovenia is officially open for business (with the EU) the border's porosity has made the situatoin even worse. Sex slaves are being trafficked across from the Middle East, former Soviet countries and Romania/Africa through Split, Rijeka, Zadar, Dubrovnik. While it hasn't gotten the publicity that Romania has done to such a large degree, Croatia is high on a number of red alert lists. There are a large number of brothels run openly in Croatia, many catering to those perverts looking for underage girls. In Split in November there was a shut down of one such hellhole, but the news was overshadowed, many feel deliberately, by the poor young Ukranian girl who died of a number of sexual viruses in Mostar. The implication was , sure there was panic in Croatia for "the men who visit Bosnia for sex" (quote from Slobodna), in one foul stroke removing Croatia from the blame game.
You're dead right about letting in the orthodox peoples though, Croatia has been doing a right good job with it, the problem is the extremists screaming abuse aboutthe situation, they detract from teh genuine goodness and solidarity of the people and make many people living outside that Croatians are racist bigots!
Oh, and there wasn't a comparison drawn between Croatia and Romania, only that the countries in the region are in the same boat. Russia does have a major problem, but remember, the girls are exports and while there are many groups of criminals involved, because of it's unfortunate geographical position those who trade in human misery in Croatia are up to their eveil necks in it!
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Post by Barba Jere on Feb 27, 2005 21:39:18 GMT 1
yeah sex slaves.
im sorry Irac this with Croats beeing biggest traffickers I hear first time and I do have data.I know its Albanians and Bulgarians.
So tell me who is consuming those Sex slaves in Ireland? also Croats or drunk Irish men?
and why r they less criminals then those who bring them over. Same not a very nice persons. But no they are not prosecuted. thats tollerated.If there was no demand there wouldnt be offer.
and please this is not a topic about trafficking of humans.
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Post by irac on Feb 27, 2005 22:34:43 GMT 1
funny you should use the word consuming, sounds oddly correct. But i doesn't matter, and sure tehre is a demand, so how does that make it okay? ANd certinaly the Croats are right up there with the albanians and Bulgarians, it's been proved that in conjunction with them that croatian criminals move them through eastern europe and into the EU and beyond. I do think that the mention of criminals in regards tgo Croatia was mentioned in a post and a discussion was had, which means that the nature of the criminal activities was also included, nothing out of place there right?
Again it is one of the sticking points with the EU, not alone the lack of transparency over handing over war criminals, nor the poor economy, nor the abuses of human rights nor even the way in which contratcs for government sanctioned and funded work are handed out. it is also to do witht he criminal activies and corruption in the security forces and the lack of tight border controls. Let's face it, it's a well known (recorded) activity that when the summer coastal routes open up for tourists, so do the passes and roads across the mountains from Bosnia, and along them, like last June when 6 Bosnian girls between the ages of 17 and 24 were taken from the back of a TAM canvas sider, pass the unfortunate victims of the sex trade.
One cannot be defensive of one's nationality when it comes to this issue Barba, as it crosses both passports and jurisdictions. Being deliberately insulting about "drunk Irish" doesn't move the problem on any, and it lessens your argument. It doesn't take alcohol to engage in the activity, nor does it matter about your citizenship, can you not accept that it is happening and is wrong? And that until something is actively done to stem the tide then it's one more reason for the EU to doubt Croatian sincerity about making changes and allow a platform for fools like those this weekend?
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Post by My 2 cents on Feb 27, 2005 23:59:16 GMT 1
Mirko1 says "This is cr*p! It is our faulut that we Croats are STUPID, and allow to be humiliated. If we would kick back, this nonsense would not happend. As a first step, take away Croatian documents from all Serbs attending this meeting in Belgrade (apparently almost half of them have CRO passports itd). "
i totally agree with you mirko, since tudjman died our govt. hav been the biggest ass lickers so i dont see this happening. On the contrary i can see mesic and his boys rebuilding these 'krajina' serbs houses for them and rolling out the red carpet for the ing scum to return to croatia
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Post by star on Feb 28, 2005 1:45:52 GMT 1
Its important that croatians not let themselves be provoked by the unscrupulous actions of the serbian government. It is obvious that the RSK was set up deliberately to alarm croatians into refusing to accept refugees and thereby not complying with EU entrance requirements.
Don't fall for their smoke a mirrors, they are desperate to stop Croatia from entering the EU first and the UK is firmly on their side.
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Post by Old Guest on Feb 28, 2005 12:26:55 GMT 1
Its important that croatians not let themselves be provoked by the unscrupulous actions of the serbian government. It is obvious that the RSK was set up deliberately to alarm croatians into refusing to accept refugees and thereby not complying with EU entrance requirements. Don't fall for their smoke a mirrors, they are desperate to stop Croatia from entering the EU first and the UK is firmly on their side. They can't provoke anything. It is on us to put this provokation at only political place where it belongs - in garbage. And take legal actions against Croatians citizens in "politicaly organized rebbelion, for interests of other country", buy Croatian "KPZ" (let me not quote articles). People reacted with emotions, but both them and goverment calmed down quicky. And now we can wait to see what legal and diplomacy institutions will do about this. And about UK. Of course they look for every "anti-Cro" argument, because they must explain to big boss why they can't keep promisses, and why is Turkey so big problem for such "strong and influential" country. Croatia is in this case just "card" on table for UK to save its poltitical credibility in eyes of USA. I wish them best luck, but I think luck is not on their side this time. Suddenly, Bush turned his ship in completly opposite direction considering EU ... So we will see ... Birocrats in Brusseles started to suffer from "amnesia" in last few days ...
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