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Post by Girl from Zagreb on Mar 17, 2005 18:00:04 GMT 1
It has nothing to do with nationalism. And, for what it's worth, I do not think that we have any more nationalist feelings that any other nation in EU. As for Jansa, I live now in Slovenia, so I know their attitude very well. Now we swear on them, but couple of months ago, we (our politicians) declared Slovenians our worst enemies. We are not taken seriosly because our reactions are based on our emotions and not rational decisions.
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Post by Old Guest on Mar 17, 2005 18:12:09 GMT 1
I don't swear on anybody. Personaly, I don't think Croatia deserved to come even close to EU. But siting and waiting just to see that EU is divided from inside, and then look at it as our political defeat is absurd.
We puted our hear infront of gun, and XX was happy to pull a triger for us ... This is definitely our fault, and nobody elses.
Anway, it is not important, I think we should learn how to accept defeat and not beg others to "hit us", because we made and anounced our decision to commit suicide. It won't look any better if it is made in public by help of enemie.
What I am really concerned about, even if out politics change in right direction, EU won't be able to help us anyway. And this voting paradox give me too many arguments for such oppinion.
If they all voted against, I will be much more optimistic.
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Post by steve peraic on Mar 17, 2005 23:26:17 GMT 1
the amount of duplicity and mis representaion in the british press astounds me, I'v read an article in the guardian ref: eu not agreeing to talks with croatia, 150000 serbs cleansed from croatia... gotovinas fault, other war crimes not specified, bank robbery in france also down to gotovina.... no doubt it will soon be 9/11. what a monster this man must be and how twisted history becomes in no time at all. For 5 years if memory serves me right the eu led by britain & france wrung its hands as croatian families were driven from their homes, as innocents were slaughtered. Teh eu failed in any way to defend law and human rights when that defence was most desperatly required. How twisted a world we live in when these same hand wringers now demand that justice and law prevail. Easy when the bullets aint flying and everyone plays by your rules.... For a more honest law to prevail it is the douglas hurds and his eu counterparts of the time that should be answering questions. In particular why did they let this happen and then why did they let it go on & on. All this posturing is shameless from both sides. I would like someone to tell me why do some european nations mis trust us so much. I would also like to know why some here think themselves to be so superior that they could show croatians how they could become members of a happy western union. In the west there is no corruption, no crime, no inhumanity, everything is just so fantastic, business is so easy, life is just peaches..... I live in the UK..... honestly its not so perfect at all. Oh yes everything money can buy and plenty of money with which to buy it.....but it is a crumbling society... I like to think there is a better way...... then the EU
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Post by Ribaric on Mar 18, 2005 0:47:26 GMT 1
Steve, The hand-wringers looked on as Yugoslavia destroyed itself, the whole world looked on at a civil war, to them it was not Croat against Serb against muslim, it was an internal conflict. Even Russia and the USA could do nothing. It is a mistake to blame the rest of the world for not taking your side.
The EU doesn't distrust Croatians, but it has to think of Serbia too. How could they insist on Mladic & co being given up and then say "OK" to General Gotovina being left out of the argument - that would be real duplicity. I know it's painful to accept but, to the rest of the world, they are the same and need to answer the charges in Den Haag.
If anyone thinks they are superior then I agree they are stupid, but why do you think this. I'm as CroUK as anyone but I try to learn the lessons from both points of view. I don't see anyone looking down their nose at Croatia and don't be taken in by the apparent support of the "Hapsburg" states - they are only interested in keeping out Turkey - even if they need to sacrifice Croatia to do it.
I have my views on "crumbling" society in the UK but this is another topic, your post makes no justification on this.
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Post by CroatianSerbAbroad on Mar 18, 2005 1:17:47 GMT 1
In reponse to Steve Peraic, i dont think that the West does mistrust Croatia. In the case of the UK i think many will not even know where Croatia is in Europe (Unless they have recently been their on holiday or in the days of Yugoslavia), i speak from experience having lived in the UK a long time.
I agree with the Ribaric post, the EU must show consistency and as such if Mladic and Karadzic have to be caught then that same standard must be enacted on Gotovina. Bosnia and Serbia also has aspirations towards the EU and as such they will face the same criteria of handing war criminals over. My personal viewpoint is that Croatia is ahead of these countries and it should take its rightful place in the EU as soon as possible.
Croatia should look to become the leader in the balkans in terms of standards, laws and the basic respect of human rights, i for one fully support a Croatia that does this. With Croatian Serbs such as Milorad Pupovac also politically supporting Croatia's status in the EU, this can only be a positive sign for EU supporting a multi-ethnic Croatia.
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Post by barba Jere on Mar 18, 2005 8:05:54 GMT 1
not only to hold Serbia but this was mainly done for Turkey.
Now if Turkey will not comly with Human Rigts EU will request from them thez will just saz well we blocked Croatia for one man.
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Post by Old Guest on Mar 18, 2005 10:43:49 GMT 1
not only to hold Serbia but this was mainly done for Turkey. Now if Turkey will not comly with Human Rigts EU will request from them thez will just saz well we blocked Croatia for one man. Well, I wouldn't conect things in this way. But problems do exsist. First, everything what Croatia was doing and will do is only on internal political level, and to put it in short, it is more or less - nothing. We have two major streams in aproach to EU in Croatian politics: 1. Midstream approach - they look on everything as "Croatias objective problem" but without defining any problem exactly. They tend to "paint things in pink", and I bet only thing they learned from "negotiations postponed" situation will be - "we should be more convincing in lieing then before". Main goal for them is to - stay in power, and keep Gotovina out of their jurisdiction. 2. Rightstream approach - they look on everything as EU's fault, with extension on - friendly and nonfriendly EU members. They will "extend europhobia" on "necessery" level to goverment's "paint in pink" option become conterproductive. Only goal for them is - elections soonest possible. They don't care about Gotovina at all, but are perfectly okay while he is not in Hague, so they can manipulate with public. 3. Croatian public - completly aside from what is going on between Croatia and EU, and where is Gotovina in all this. They tend to wish "paint in pink situation" but look at "rightstream option" as more realistic, because of few reasons. Mostly because they have no "personal contact with EU", and see only "good news - bad news" occasional political pamflets presented by goverment. They are in informational "blocade" about EU, at same time constantly filled with confussing informations about Gotovina and EU is same context. Why is goverment not dealing with Gotovinas case ? a) First, "pro Gotovina" approach made them winning elections (this is what they think). EU was used just as coverup which they planed to invert in priorities in advance of EU latter. But since they mixed two paradoxes together, and constantly lied about them, they are not so sure who was real reason for them winning elections - EU or Gotovina (great example for this paradoy is presidential campagne of Jadranka Kosor) ... so how to "mix tasty coctail" of half-EU half-Gotovina is still mistery for them. Lattely they tend to get dessapointed by EU and its lack of "understanding" for their weird possition. But since they don't have any plans to deal with economy, employment policy, social security etc. EU is only chance for them to stay in power. b) EU is and was avoiding to face Hague court issues and it's deep political influences on Balcans region. Instead, they decided to aproach it "EU way", which means - birocraticaly. But very soon it turned out that Hague court (prosecution) is more politicaly profiled to region of Balcans, then EU itself. Goverment is still hopping that "court will fail" if it is more and more politicaly exposed in EU ... Irrational, but - they do believe in this. c) On third side we have USA and their "completely negative approachh" on Hague court. But since it exsist, they are not affraid of using it - in every possible political context. So goverment believes that - USA will destroy court (which is probably right), but Croatia won't gain anything out of it. This is - doubleirrational approach, and Croatian diplomacy doesn't see it as complete waist of time (as anybody else with IQ bigger then room temperature will) And little about Turkey. Turkey have right to be concerned about this approaches, because Turkey itself is politicaly divided inside it's political body very alike Croatia (and share same paranoias and irrational views on EU). Seeing how legal and political mechanisms can quickly change sides under EU's leadership (means - if birocracy is measure of political interests), should indeed make them wory (because they are same as Croatians - completly nonflexible on both political and diplomacy level). It is not just Hague court as it is presented, then general principles of "monitoring" established by EU, for two way protection - of EU and future member too. Okay, now emiz can start to suck my blood
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Post by steve peraic on Mar 18, 2005 11:06:29 GMT 1
I am sorry I can not accept that the west could do nothing, they did in fact do something, they imposed an arms embargo effectivly leaving muslims & croats defenceless. It is conveniently forgotten that britain and america had huge investments at risk, as allways the motives for western governments was fiscal and pragmatic, concerns about humanity are simply a convenient front. To equate Gotovina with Mladic and Karadzis is absurd, the former was defending and reclaiming an area of croatia that had been ethnicly cleansed of croats and occupied by an invading military force, the JNA. The latter were aggressors seeking to establish a conquered region of greater serbia from where all natives of non serb origin would be vanquished.The west took a different outlook on things when the Iraqis occupied Kuwait, remember the borders of the middle east are a western construct and bare no real relation to the division of peoples or territorial integrity based on the natural development of a nation state. But of course a lot of money was at stake so the response of the west was very different. My point is that the UK Guardian's reporting on the issue of Croatia joining th EU was one sided and misleading, Gotovina did not drive out thousands of serbs from croatia, they left on orders of belgrade, a fact already admitted by a krajina serb at the hague, he was not involved nor is formaly charged with the french bank robbery. No duplicity? No prejudice? I thought a man was innocent until proved guilty. The west does not seem to understand that for croatia to hand over Gotovina would be like britain handing over Montgomery after WW2, to brits... unthinkable, the real criminals are the politicians of the time who are by and large sitting pretty.... Hurd, Carrington, Major, Bush Eagleberger and all their Cronies who will no doubt one day face the truth though it may well be on their death beds answering to God.
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Post by Old Guest on Mar 18, 2005 11:10:07 GMT 1
And one more thing about "playing the game" sintagma so much used here.
Nothing in modern politics in about "playing the game" then about adjusting pace and flexibility.
Learning how to "play the game" by some rules for 10 years or more makes you way out of time, because modern politics follows fast pace, which needs to be adjusted in moment, filled with a lot of positive initiative.
This is where Croatia is completly non sucessfull, and doesn't have idea "what to learm, why and when). Instead of trying to learn how to "play the game" Croatia need to become flexible in adjustment on EU's pace and gain maximum for itself from mutual interest which will come only if Croatia is participating (means - training, training and only training).
Beeing in constant delay and "learning the game from aside" puts you on the bench.
You will enter "field of game" only after you find yourself good position on the field where your initiative and cooperation will help team - to winn.
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Post by Girl from Zagreb on Mar 18, 2005 11:44:14 GMT 1
Anyway, if any of you would like to play a Haag game, visit www.crocafe.net/haag At least we kept our sense of humor...Have fun! ;D
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Post by CroatianSerbAbroad on Mar 18, 2005 13:36:17 GMT 1
Steve, you do raise some interesting points, some i agree with and others i do not.
I would agree that it would appear that the so called "krajina" was nothing more than an aspiration towards Greater Serbia. However I believe this was the small element of a much bigger picture. Milosevic was no fool, he knew that a state within Croatia was impossible - since he knew that if this became true then the same status would have to be granted to Kosovo albanians. This he would not permit and so i believe his idea was to re-populate that region with the fleeing Croatian Serbs after the collapse of Krajina.
In terms of people leaving on orders from Belgrade, i believe this is a naive comment to make since no population will leave on orders - ordinary people are not an army. The truth is that with no military presence in place, Croatian Serbs felt that retribution would take place by Croats (and this did take place) and so fled the country in fear of their lives.
This can be understood on two levels, the first is that Croatian independence came with a real lack of sensitivity towards Croatian Serbs (If you check voting patterns, Croatian Serbs actually voted a lot more for the reformed sots than any nationalist party prior to the war). They were an alienated people, rightly or wrongly fearing an uprising similar to that in the past. The second point is that Croats were cleansed from Krajina, something i am ashamed of since we had many good Croatian friends who were forced to leave, as such this prompted retribution worries.
As a serb, i have no love lost for "krajina" or for the pure state it once represented, I simply feel that people on both sides must accept responsibility for true reconcilliation to take place.
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Post by GS on Mar 18, 2005 13:44:29 GMT 1
Steve, you do raise some interesting points, some i agree with and others i do not. I would agree that it would appear that the so called "krajina" was nothing more than an aspiration towards Greater Serbia. However I believe this was the small element of a much bigger picture. Milosevic was no fool, he knew that a state within Croatia was impossible - since he knew that if this became true then the same status would have to be granted to Kosovo albanians. This he would not permit and so i believe his idea was to re-populate that region with the fleeing Croatian Serbs after the collapse of Krajina. In terms of people leaving on orders from Belgrade, i believe this is a naive comment to make since no population will leave on orders - ordinary people are not an army. The truth is that with no military presence in place, Croatian Serbs felt that retribution would take place by Croats (and this did take place) and so fled the country in fear of their lives. This can be understood on two levels, the first is that Croatian independence came with a real lack of sensitivity towards Croatian Serbs (If you check voting patterns, Croatian Serbs actually voted a lot more for the reformed sots than any nationalist party prior to the war). They were an alienated people, rightly or wrongly fearing an uprising similar to that in the past. The second point is that Croats were cleansed from Krajina, something i am ashamed of since we had many good Croatian friends who were forced to leave, as such this prompted retribution worries. As a serb, i have no love lost for "krajina" or for the pure state it once represented, I simply feel that people on both sides must accept responsibility for true reconcilliation to take place. You make some valid points but i think its high time you dropped the "croatian" bit from your name and just called yourself "serbAbroad" ...
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Post by Ribaric on Mar 18, 2005 14:45:18 GMT 1
Steve makes some good points and CroatianSerbAbroad and Old Guest makes some well considered counter arguments, this is good stuff. I'd like to add a couple of bits.
I don't see how Iraq/Kuwait situation is comparable to the civil war in Yugoslavia. Iraq invaded a foreign sovereign state (both were in the UN). This resulted in the coalition/Iraq conflict. The civil war was just that, it is very difficult for the UN to do anything about a country which kills itself. The Yugo borders were nothing to do with western powers drawing lines in the sand so they had no responsibility to sort out the mess. The arms embargo was on Yugoslavia, not Croatia. What else could they do?
I understand your views about Gotovina being a hero and freeing up "occupied" lands. This was an awful situation for the population of both sides who did the bulk of the suffering. However, killing unarmed people people is genocide - whoever does it. I don't know if Gotovina is guilty but the EU say there is enough evidence that he must answer the charge.
As for Monty, I think he was an upper class twit and believe it was Rommel being starved of food and supplies that allowed Monty to have his victory. There is another parallel, Churchill was possibly the world's biggest hero in 1945 so what did the British public do? They voted him out of government. The point is, Gotovina will be ditched by his people if the circumstances dictate. I feel sorry for him as he has become a pawn in the bigger game.
Why would "CroatianSerbAbroad" want to change his name? I got cheated by a bloke with whom I had a business deal recently, the only time it has happened to me in Croatia. He is a Serb. Do I now hate all Serbs? Is that the way to go?
Thanks for the insight barba-Jere, I don't understand all you've said but there are some thought provoking points to consider.
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neda
Junior Member
Posts: 10
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Post by neda on Mar 18, 2005 15:32:14 GMT 1
What Croatia needs are intelligent and wise ruling politicians who will lead from the front in showing the nation the wisdom of being a tolerent, broad-minded country, politicians who know how to play the international game, who are strong enough to deal with rogue elements inside the security services, who are not hanging on to romantic notions of war-time heroes, who aren't brainwashed into thinking the whole world is against Croatia (most people wouldn't even know where it is on the map), who don't throw tantrums when they fail to get what they want, and can take the country forward as a mature and sensible, respected nation. Until that happens, Croatia will be remain a tin-pot little country where corruption is rife, where workers don't get paid for months on end, where ignorance is bliss and everybody else is to blame.
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Post by EMIZ on Mar 18, 2005 15:50:34 GMT 1
Neda; that is one of the best posts I have ever seen on here.
Well said, , that sums up the current situation perfectly.
One thing I will add is that Croatia really has a lot to aim for with some of the changes neda mentioned this could truly be a wonderful place to life, a life in bliss instead of a life in blissful ignorance.
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