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Post by AAC on Mar 20, 2005 0:08:22 GMT 1
Just an amendment to my figures in my last post, the number of US passport holders is 22% not 78%, oops.
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Post by CroatianSerbAbroad on Mar 20, 2005 4:04:25 GMT 1
I think it is too easy just to simply "bash" Americans for various things, i think we need to understand the country and people before making such comments.
America is a relatively new country, built on hard work and since their is no hierarchial society (like in the UK), people are judged on their materialistic belongings (car, house et cetera). As such people work hard and are very consumptive.
The country has also been built on immigration and thorugh this immigration the society has developed a culture that is an amalgamation of lots of others - Irish, Serb, Croat, Italian, Slovene. Russian, French, British....
America is a vast country, only 22% have passports but i can believe this and it is not necessarily as terrible as it sounds. Due to its vastness i would argue that it would take a lifetime to see all the sites and areas of interest in the states (Grand Canyon, Statue of Liberty, New York, California, Hollywood).....
European countries are much smaller and as such we travel a lot more, I am sure that if the UK and Germany had coastlines as beautiful as those on the Dalmatian Coast we would never see them again as tourists and they would not invest in the Croatian economy.
Before i get people accusing me of being an American lover - i am not!. I live in the UK but i feel we need to understand societies before we criticise them.
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Post by Ugursuz on Mar 20, 2005 9:57:46 GMT 1
This is exactly my point; before saying that Croats are agoraphobic (fear of open space) one should know more about the place and people that what CIA fact-book says or what british Forreign Office thinks.
3. International travel does not increase a persons ability to think logically, nor does it increase their decision making abilities.
For logical thinking one can be a total idiot but still be capable of practising it. What 'international travel' gives you is the knowledge about the world. So when you think 'logically' you don't think like a primitive calculator (2+2=4) in each and every case.
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Post by Old Guest on Mar 20, 2005 11:59:43 GMT 1
Old Guest: Croatians do not travel a lot so they are claustrophobic...?!?This is what I call cluelesness....From 1960 onwards 300.000 Croatians went to work in Germany ONLY. At the same time Croatia had not more than 4.5MM people. The half of the rest of Croatians went abroad for one reason or another. And this applies until this time. At the same time, 90% of citizens of USA HAVE NO PASSPORT. And all that 90% of citizens of US enpower american government to do all that what american government does in and with or towrds Croatia. Thank you very much. So please, before you write something, check around in order not to write something baseless, groundless or just plain stupid. Okay, smart guy ... Since I am stupid, but willing to learn, let me sum - Croatians have "objective" oppinion about rest of the world because they have extraordinary sense for logic, developed happy multi-cultural enviroment, covered with education, conplete lack of ksenophobia and religious/ratial prejudices filled also with first hand information from construction workers from Germany. Correct ? Happy now ? Will I get cooky and picture of "headmaster" ?
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midge
Full Member
Posts: 89
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Post by midge on Mar 20, 2005 12:17:41 GMT 1
..."international travel" maybe wouldn't matter much if this was a multy-cultural society...this way...I agree with Old Guest...but there's always more to it!
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Post by Ugursuz on Mar 20, 2005 21:11:46 GMT 1
Okay, smart guy ... Since I am stupid, but willing to learn, let me sum - Croatians have "objective" oppinion about rest of the world because they have extraordinary sense for logic, developed happy multi-cultural enviroment, covered with education, conplete lack of ksenophobia and religious/ratial prejudices filled also with first hand information from construction workers from Germany.
Correct ? Happy now ? Will I get cooky and picture of "headmaster" ?
No, you will not get a cooky. You will have to spend much more time thinking about your arguments to prove that an average american redneck may have more objective opinion on the worldly topics when compared with an average croatian citizen. Average american citizen is by far more ignorant about the world out of his/hers country than a croatian citizen. I have met exceptional american intellectuals and government officials but this does not change an overall picture.
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Post by AAC on Mar 20, 2005 22:08:01 GMT 1
"Average american citizen is by far more ignorant about the world out of his/hers country than a croatian citizen. I have met exceptional american intellectuals and government officials but this does not change an overall picture." For that sweeping generalization I think some examples might be in order. Tell us about your brilliance compared to the average American. Examples might lend some small bit of credibility to your anti-American rant. So crack open your CV and please do tell what qualifies you to make these statements. Oh wait, should I look for your CV on google? Let me see... key words... small-minded pinhead...why yes there it is.
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Post by CroatianSerbAbroad on Mar 20, 2005 22:57:10 GMT 1
Come on guys lets no start unsulting people over viewpoints.
Ugursuz may have a point to the simple extent of exposure to world affairs, i have experience of the United States and Croatia and from the viewpoint of media, Croatian TV shows a considerable amount of world affairs - UK, US, Europe, Asia.
In the US, i tend to only see media exposure to US related affairs abroad and US events.
I do not believe you are ignorant, i believe that it may simply be the case that US citizens would have to make a real effort to know what is going on in the world. I believe this is extra difficult when i see how many hours you guys spend working over there.
So in any posts, can we please have reasoning for responses rather than simple "swipes" at one nation and the other!
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Post by AAC on Mar 20, 2005 23:33:10 GMT 1
You do have a point Croatianserbabroad, but "redneck" is an offensive term unless you happen to be from a rural environment in the US and you are speaking to someone else in that type of environment. So I just want to hear some specifics as to what makes this man/woman qualified to speak this way. While many people can and do disagree with EMIZ, he never lacks for specific reasons for his opinions. Not trying to stick up for you too much EMIZ, still thinking about the observation you made about lack of culture in the US.
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Post by GS on Mar 21, 2005 2:43:50 GMT 1
I am dissapointed to read the post by GS - why should i remove the Croatian part from my name?. I shall provide some personal insight into this area - i am not ashamed of my Croatian roots, regardless of this war the one thing i have learned is that many Croatian Serbs share similar traits to Croatians native to that country. We had very good Croatian friends and as people in general i believe they are good-hearted and amongst the friendliest people i have ever met. The other realisation is that Serbs differ enormously from region to region, i can far more relate with native Croatians that i can with Bosnian Serbs or Serbians. Even our dialect is more similar to Croatian than Serbian with the use of words such as "cruh". It dissapoints me that people feel i should remove the Croatian element, it is not something i am ashamed of. I truly hope the day will come when Croatian Serbs realise that our future lies within Croatia, working together with Croats rather than against them. CroSerbabroad, First of all I said that you make some valid points, so I was not refuting your comments. !! What I am however saying is that your nickname does not reflect your arguments in that on many an ocassion you seem to be arguing for the serbs particlualry when you make comments like, "Croatian independence came with a real lack of sensitivity towards Croatian Serbs" ...wow !! If you consider that the Croatian Govt made numerous conscessions to the Serb minority before hostilities commenced then you would not make such claims as above. Such as : -Complete Autonomy (including local self-determination) -Parliamentary Representation -Religious Freedom -Cultural Freedom ...just to list a few. What is important here is to recognise the then Government's desire to afford the local serbs as much tolerance as possibly so as to avoid conflict on the scale which we witnessed. How much more consideration could they have given?? It was only through Seselj and Milosevic's dream of a Greater Serbia that gave cause for Serbs to declare the annexure of SAO Krajina with the Serb Motherland. I am sorry !! but the Government and the people could NOT allow that to happen. That was pure and blatant neglect and disrespect of Croatia's Sovreignity on its OWN soil. Mind you we did tolerate it for some 4-5 years until of course Operation Oluja !! So please dont tell me that Croats were not sensiitive to the Serb minority when the decision to secede was made. Remember the Croats were ill-equipped to engage in any kind of warfare at the time due to the military embargo therefore our only weapon at the time was to allow concessions for the serbs... whilst they (the serbs)in the meantime burnt villages like Kijevo and Krusevo to the ground under the watchful eyes of EC..... who are just as responsible for the massacres that took place because of their reluctance to intervene. If we are going to hunt down Gotovina then might I suggest, that whilst we are at it, the EC might want to issue a warrant for those in the EC that could have prevented the scale of the massacres in Croatia and BiH (namely places like Gorazde and Srebrenica). They are just as guilty.....
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Post by CroatianSerbAbroad on Mar 21, 2005 2:53:20 GMT 1
GS i do not disagree with your views, particularly those around the Krajina, believe me that i hold just as much contempt for that so called country as you do.
I also can never condone the burning of any villages, my viewpoint is that concessions were indeed made but their was such a period of national hysteria that their was a lack of sensitivity, this was not helped by Belgrade either i must add.
I do not support a serb viewpoint on many issues, as you will see from my above viewpoints, my great concern is that true reconcilliation will never take place because one side will always try to take the moral high ground.
It is written fact that the great majority of serbs in Croatia voted for Ivica Racan's reformed communists during the first elections, so why did these people swing behind the nationalists only shortly afterwards? Although i can accept that their are crack-pot serbs in Croatia that were hell bent on war, i would equally argue that the great majority of people were genuinely frightened.
If only both sets of people could have united at that time, what sort of a Croatia would we see today. I believe one that is in the EU, with booming tourism and a great deal more wealth for its people.
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Post by GS on Mar 21, 2005 2:57:17 GMT 1
Good Post CroSerbAbroad, Perhaps you might consider removing "Serb" from your nickname then ...
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Post by CroatianSerbAbroad on Mar 21, 2005 12:55:28 GMT 1
Hey now GS, lets not go too far by removing the "serb" part!!
I think i have achieved the perfect balance of the two! - Tito would be proud!
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Post by GS on Mar 21, 2005 14:10:11 GMT 1
Oh Dear !! I was beginning to take a liking to you but thats all gone pear shaped !!!!
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Post by Ugursuz on Mar 21, 2005 17:36:04 GMT 1
For that sweeping generalization I think some examples might be in order. Tell us about your brilliance compared to the average American. Examples might lend some small bit of credibility to your anti-American rant. So crack open your CV and please do tell what qualifies you to make these statements.
What qualifies me....? Oh, dear, dear, dear....
Try to do this test: stop any 100 citizens of the US while walking the street and ask them 'Where is Croatia'?
I'll do the same here but I'll ask 'Where is the US of A'?
Further, ignorant is ignorant for whatever reason. Is it because you did not have a chance to know or you did not care to know is irrelevant. People pay attention to other people for many reasons. Why average american does not pay attention to many things that are not 'american' can be discussed but that does not change the fact as such. I don't see the point in analyzing killer's psyche and trying to understand why he killed someone. The other guy is dead and that is all that matters.
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