|
Post by My 2 cents on Feb 12, 2005 4:39:16 GMT 1
Why does our government kiss so much a.ss just to get into europe? Seems to me they'd sell their own souls just to be part of 'europe'.
For us to get into europe we have to let all those serbs , who left on there own accord in 1995 to come back to croatia. These are the same serbs who controlled a third of croatia and cleansed the region of all croats, banning croats from living there. These are the same serbs who massacred, raped, tortured our people in OUR homeland.
We also have to hand over our generals for defending croatia, the entire war was fought on croatian soil and we are the ones ending up in the hague!!
We dont need europe, we have a beautiful country we can do it ourselves we just need to pull our finger out. It really really annoys me off the way we suck up to other countries, they say jump we say how high. lets stand on our own 2 feet and do what we want not what others want.
|
|
|
Post by Ribaric on Feb 13, 2005 1:54:15 GMT 1
If HR stays out....
1. The EU will put up trade barriers/tarifs to protect it's internal market. HR will not be able to sell anything to it. = Negative balance of payments.
2. The buying power of a BIG customer (EU) will import at cheap prices. HR will not get the same price. = Inflation.
3. The EU gives massive subsidies to ensure living standards and economic systems are maintained. = HR won't get any (It transformed Eire and Spain).
4. EU contracts for everything will go to EU members, HR won't be asked to supply anything. = Low GDP for HR
5. The EU gives guarantees and preferential rates for loans to it's members. HR already owes billions to the EU. = Huge national debt.
6. The EU sells cheaply within it's borders (generally). HR will not be able to buy at the same low prices. = Yet more inflation.
I understand the feeling for national identity but I don't think you have a real choice, no more than the rest of us did once it became clear that the EU would match the enconomic might of the USA. The rest joined because, to stay out, would be to commit economic suicide.
I could be wrong though!
|
|
|
Post by EmIZ on Feb 13, 2005 2:24:44 GMT 1
Yeah all that may be true, but I don't want some Englishman telling me what to do, blah blah blah. Listen up Croats, Croatia is one of the poorest countries in Europe, now surely by sharing the wealth Croatia will improve, the question should be is Croatia really a country that is ready for the EU. I really believe that Croats would prefer to continue to struggle to have so many unemployed people, to continue the corruption and everything else just because they will be in charge
|
|
|
Post by Old Guest on Feb 13, 2005 2:29:51 GMT 1
Yeah all that may be true, but I don't want some Englishman telling me what to do, blah blah blah. Listen up Croats, Croatia is one of the poorest countries in Europe, now surely by sharing the wealth Croatia will improve, the question should be is Croatia really a country that is ready for the EU. I really believe that Croats would prefer to continue to struggle to have so many unemployed people, to continue the corruption and everything else just because they will be in charge We are listening EMIZ ... ;D Corruption will expire when Croatia join EU ;D Nope, we are not ready to join EU ;D
|
|
|
Post by Culchie on Feb 13, 2005 3:13:06 GMT 1
Corruption may not stop overnight, but at least the Croatian politicians will have to answer to EU finance, and account for EU funding.
It will open up competition for public contracts, road building etc...
It will open up the labour market, for others to be able to come in, bring their knowledge from different economies, to develop Croatian business sectors.
It will (most importantly) bring interest rates down, giving people access to money at a reasonable rate to invest in Capital projects, set up businesses that will create employment and therefore increase wealth for the Croats.
Yes, it is not all one way traffic, Croatia will have to play the political game and bow to some unpopular requests from the EU to satisfy entry guidelines, but that's life, you have to 'give'' to 'receive'. I'm not talking about any specific request here, but generalising.
I don't think any of the previously poor countries that could be compared to Croatia in terms of development when they joined the EU (Ireland, Portugal, Greece, Spain etc...) would even dream of leaving the EU, it has been an incredible beneficial experience for them (Farming, Fishing industries may not agree) but as a whole, the nations are in favour of the EU.
I also think one thing is missed here as well. The ethos of the EU is help the poorer countries, I for one welcome and work with the Estonians, Latvians, Lithuianians, Polish who have recently joined. I'm glad they can travel around Europe if they wish, find work and send money home to their poor families, I don't see anything wrong in that.
I worked in France, Switzerland, UK, but I still moved home as most people do, Croats should have that opportunity as well.
I'm interested in hearing some specific reasons why Croatia should not join the EU, I don't think it will change my mind, but I'd like to hear your arguments.
|
|
|
Post by Three Lions on Feb 13, 2005 10:36:47 GMT 1
Stay out of the EU and remain the same as Serbia for the next 100 years
|
|
|
Post by EMIZ on Feb 13, 2005 13:40:12 GMT 1
I don't understand how Croats using this board, believe Croatia will improve without outside money.
All strong countries need powerful companies to generate money, and as far as I am concerned only Pliva meets the criteria. There is no depth in the Croatian economy, there simply isn’t enough money, lets not argue about this, lets face the facts, the government are skint, the majority of companies are skint and the majority of people are skint.
One company cannot support an economy. The state owned giants are being sold off to foreigner owners, i.e Ina.
The tourist season is short in Croatia and the area is undeveloped. This needs vast investment. I actually think that there could be much more done to attract winter guests here, skiing, hunting etc.
If Croatia joins the EU, Croatia will take take take, however there will be a point, when the Croatian economy has improved, when the infrastructure is in place, when people can afford to buy what they need or want.
At this point Croatia becomes a viable and attractive trading partner.
There is a sense of control from the EU, because if you are the brother of all EU countries you wont want to forge a war against them, I am sure no Croat ever wants to witness the horrific scenes of recent times. Every country including Germany and the UK has to do things that it doesn’t want to, Croats should not be fooled into thinking that the big dictator countries will be running Croatia.
Joining the euro will mean a stable currency and mean that Croats no longer have to play banker in the normal lives. Other than narrow-minded separatism I see no reason for Croats not wanting to join.
|
|
|
Post by Old Guest on Feb 13, 2005 17:01:14 GMT 1
I don't understand how Croats using this board, believe Croatia will improve without outside money. All strong countries need powerful companies to generate money, and as far as I am concerned only Pliva meets the criteria. There is no depth in the Croatian economy, there simply isn’t enough money, lets not argue about this, lets face the facts, the government are skint, the majority of companies are skint and the majority of people are skint. One company cannot support an economy. The state owned giants are being sold off to foreigner owners, i.e Ina. The tourist season is short in Croatia and the area is undeveloped. This needs vast investment. I actually think that there could be much more done to attract winter guests here, skiing, hunting etc. If Croatia joins the EU, Croatia will take take take, however there will be a point, when the Croatian economy has improved, when the infrastructure is in place, when people can afford to buy what they need or want. At this point Croatia becomes a viable and attractive trading partner. There is a sense of control from the EU, because if you are the brother of all EU countries you wont want to forge a war against them, I am sure no Croat ever wants to witness the horrific scenes of recent times. Every country including Germany and the UK has to do things that it doesn’t want to, Croats should not be fooled into thinking that the big dictator countries will be running Croatia. Joining the euro will mean a stable currency and mean that Croats no longer have to play banker in the normal lives. Other than narrow-minded separatism I see no reason for Croats not wanting to join. All golden words ... but, EU doesn't want Croatia, and this is how it is. I can't do anything to change this. I can kneel and beg ... but again I (same as other 99,999 percent of Croatian people) I can't do anything in Gotovinas case (believe it or not). And my inability to do something nobody else can do (or might not) is reason why I will never join EU. No metter how much would I like to, how much I think you are right in most things you say, and how huge ambition in inproving myself and my surrounding I had at some point in past. I am Croat (in this enignatic political pot I have no value as individual), and as individual I can only or - face facts and keep kneeling ifront EU doors, spit on myself as much "is necessery", still without any oppotunity to influence anything, or spit myself enough to become "useful". Or, with small amount of dignity which is still somewhere inside me - never agree with you, no metter how much I agree with you. I hope you would somehow understand this (but, still I understand if you can't). You = have choice. Me = no choice at all. It is in humans nature (and I believe even Croatians are still considered to be humans) is to dissagry with such possition. Unfortunately I have no choice. I can only hope for best ...
|
|
|
Post by Three Lions on Feb 13, 2005 20:39:34 GMT 1
Mate, it is the case in history, that if people get out on the street and demand change then things change. You have an old attitude that belongs in the past. Croatians should start seeing themselves as human beings, communism failed and it failed in places with even harsher regimes than Croatia. You do not live in East Germany under the watch of the Stasi.
Have Faith
|
|
|
Post by Old Guest on Feb 13, 2005 21:05:11 GMT 1
Mate, it is the case in history, that if people get out on the street and demand change then things change. You have an old attitude that belongs in the past. Croatians should start seeing themselves as human beings, communism failed and it failed in places with even harsher regimes than Croatia. You do not live in East Germany under the watch of the Stasi. Have Faith Well, I don't have fate any more ... It is worse day after day, and it won't get any better if EU don't help (not just with money) ... And EU asks for improvements which can't be made, because EU doesn't apeal on Croatian people, then apeal on Gotovinas morality. EU never positioned us in this story. So I choosed to be bitter and resigned instead of shooting myself in head (as more and more Croatians does). "Revolution", streets etc. will only jepardise EU investments in country, and make things worse. I honnestly don't hink that country where citizens solve political issues on streets instead on voting, will come closer to EU. Other thing is that I know that people don't belive EU will recognize any of their attempts as positive anyway. I think I don't need to explain this ... As one my friend said when commentin this situation - "since we are lieing in dark corrner on the floor anyway, now everybody is courage enough to kick us under ribs ... Yelling - "get up and defend yourself""
|
|
|
Post by Ribaric on Feb 13, 2005 22:14:50 GMT 1
Hi Old Guest, Whilst I have plenty of empathy with your personal standpoint, I hope you will understand my belief that the EU does want Croatia to join. The bigger the market and the richer the consumer - then the better for everyone IN the market. It will profit the EU (that means European people, not some faceless commission) to welcome HR, Ukraine, Romania and maybe even Turkey. Every little business will have a better chance of becoming a bigger one because of the sheer number of available customers. I think that's how the USA has grown so successfully over the last 100 years.
EMIZ has it exactly right, members have to do things they don't like. For HR, this is about Gotovina, a free judiciary and open financial accounting. No EU commissioner could keep their job if things like these were not resolved. If the commission didn't sack them then their sponsoring polictical party would likely lose a free democratic election as a result - there's no choice, for you, me or anyone else. I honestly and earnestly believe that HR would sink into poverty and disaster if it chose to stay out of the EU.
For lessons, I look to Hungary. I remember when Hungarians would risk death to escape to Yugoslavia? Now the movement is the other way round. Hungarians took to the streets twice (in the 50's and again in the 80's) and changed everything through great courage and determination. Croatia is in a far better position now than they were at that time. The Czechs did the same, Lech Walesa in Poland, East Berlinners, even Ukraine has just done it.
The only thing that's going to stay the same is the fact that things are always changing. My home town of London has changed beyond recognition in my adult lifetime and, to be honest, I hated it so I do understand your fears and discomfort. Now I've learned to embrace it and realise that it was all for the good - I had no choice anyway.
|
|
|
Post by Culchie on Feb 13, 2005 23:03:55 GMT 1
Old Guest, what can I say, you seem really down, and I'm sorry about that.
When you say the EU doesn't want Croatia, I don't think that is the case, I think we are Europeans, and welcome emerging countries in as well.
The Irish were bankrupt 20 years ago, we have received help, made the best of it, and going forward we will become contributors rather than recipients of future funds. Before that we were dependent on our emigrants who had to find employment in the UK and the US. (49 million of the 250 million living in the US declare Irish heritage) I don't have a problem with that, I look forward to it.
Most European states have emerged from conflict of one type or another, but troubles have to be put behind them, and some bitter pills (trade offs) have to be taken along the way.
Not easy when sometimes it means having to do something that goes against your historical principles.
|
|
|
Post by Old Guest on Feb 13, 2005 23:25:47 GMT 1
Hi Old Guest, Whilst I have plenty of empathy with your personal standpoint, I hope you will understand my belief that the EU does want Croatia to join. The bigger the market and the richer the consumer - then the better for everyone IN the market. It will profit the EU (that means European people, not some faceless commission) to welcome HR, Ukraine, Romania and maybe even Turkey. Every little business will have a better chance of becoming a bigger one because of the sheer number of available customers. I think that's how the USA has grown so successfully over the last 100 years. EMIZ has it exactly right, members have to do things they don't like. For HR, this is about Gotovina, a free judiciary and open financial accounting. No EU commissioner could keep their job if things like these were not resolved. If the commission didn't sack them then their sponsoring polictical party would likely lose a free democratic election as a result - there's no choice, for you, me or anyone else. I honestly and earnestly believe that HR would sink into poverty and disaster if it chose to stay out of the EU. For lessons, I look to Hungary. I remember when Hungarians would risk death to escape to Yugoslavia? Now the movement is the other way round. Hungarians took to the streets twice (in the 50's and again in the 80's) and changed everything through great courage and determination. Croatia is in a far better position now than they were at that time. The Czechs did the same, Lech Walesa in Poland, East Berlinners, even Ukraine has just done it. The only thing that's going to stay the same is the fact that things are always changing. My home town of London has changed beyond recognition in my adult lifetime and, to be honest, I hated it so I do understand your fears and discomfort. Now I've learned to embrace it and realise that it was all for the good - I had no choice anyway. Thanks Ribaric. But you missunderstood me. I am not scared of EU, or "closing into my own fears" ... I am scared that we will never join EU, thanks to both Croatian polititians and EU. I am saying saying that 99,9 percent of us have nothing to do with "terms and conditions" which are preventing us. I think people here will slowly pull out from idea of EU, because of "Gotovina". And if "Croatian goverment is indeed protecting him" (as EU claims), - it is better for people to shut up and face facts, because EU will not protect us from our own goverment in the end. We are only bet in this game. Not EU, not Gotovina, and not Croatian goverment. I just hope that you understand real meanings of this hostage situation. I am just afraid seeing that EU is willing to use all polulation of Croatia as hostages in this "game". For goverment I am not surprised at all. But again, I must live with this goverment, since EU see me valuable only as "bet in game" to get Gotovina. One thing is for sure. If EU stops negotiations in March ... Croatia will not join EU at least in next 20 years. And then, God help us.
|
|
|
Post by My 2 cents on Feb 14, 2005 1:21:50 GMT 1
I'm with Old Guest on this one, like it or not ppl the rest of the world hates us croats, to them we are uncivilised , barbaric s.hit people. We are always portrayed as the bad guys and thats just the way it is. Europe doesnt want us and thats why i started this topic, croatia will never go under it cant lets stand alone tall and proud instead of gutless and souless.
|
|
|
Post by Culchie on Feb 14, 2005 1:52:05 GMT 1
OK, you decide not to join the EU ...... what then?
I'm interested in your in hearing your reasoning.
Explain how you develop and improve Croatia.
P.S I don't think the rest of Europe dislikes Croats .... in fact I'd be surprised if they held any strong views one way or another.
The typical reaction I get from people is either one of two quotes.
1. I heard Croatia is beautiful, such and such a one was there last year and said it was amazing (90%)........or
2. Is the country stable now from the war? (10%)
Most people have only heard positive things about Croatia.
|
|