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Post by Old Guest on Feb 14, 2005 2:37:22 GMT 1
OK, you decide not to join the EU ...... what then? I'm interested in your in hearing your reasoning. Explain how you develop and improve Croatia. P.S I don't think the rest of Europe dislikes Croats .... in fact I'd be surprised if they held any strong views one way or another. The typical reaction I get from people is either one of two quotes. 1. I heard Croatia is beautiful, such and such a one was there last year and said it was amazing (90%)........or 2. Is the country stable now from the war? (10%) Most people have only heard positive things about Croatia. Who said that we (and here I mean more then 65 percent of population for now) don't wont to join EU ? This is unbelievable ... We got under hostage situation we can't influnce at all, 3 thirds of population still "pro EU" ... and again I hear - "you decided to not join EU ! Whats wrong with you?". Why ? Because 99,99 percent of us, including most European secret services can't find Gotovina ? I don't know where he is same as you don't. So - I can't be in EU because nobody knows where he is Am I suppose to buy "bull***t" how he is more important to EU then one whole country ? What will I expect from union in future if now it is willing to sell my but for one general ? And explain this as - my failure. I think this is not promising start, on both sides. And only Croatian people are loosing. Again - not goverment, not EU, not Gotovina - people. And all of those 3 named doesn't give a about us. Understand ?
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Post by Ribaric on Feb 14, 2005 2:43:26 GMT 1
I'm sorry Old Guest, I did misunderstand you because the thread subject says "no to Europe" and I thought this was your view. I am also sad that you feel so down about this, maybe everything will work out although there is little time left.
Culchie has some good things to say and I believe everything he/she says about other Europeans' attitude toward Croatia and it's people. The 10 million (I'm told) who visit here every year will take their experiences home and tell others. I chose to live here because of the landscape, climate, home buying costs and the people. I like it, problems included. Of course, I am only one stranac.
I now better understand your point about "hostages", and I do appreciate the education, but, as Culchie asks, what now?
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Post by Old Guest on Feb 14, 2005 2:50:18 GMT 1
I'm sorry Old Guest, I did misunderstand you because the thread subject says "no to Europe" and I thought this was your view. I am also sad that you feel so down about this, maybe everything will work out although there is little time left. Culchie has some good things to say and I believe everything he/she says about other Europeans' attitude toward Croatia and it's people. The 10 million (I'm told) who visit here every year will take their experiences home and tell others. I chose to live here because of the landscape, climate, home buying costs and the people. I like it, problems included. Of course, I am only one stranac. I now better understand your point about "hostages", and I do appreciate the education, but, as Culchie asks, what now? Listen, I travel a lot and I see what people think about Croatia. And all people in EU and USA I know think best about Croatia (I hope I had small influence on it too). What now ? I don't know. I have no idea. Probably we can expect general buncrupcy, and new wave of privatisation where all tourist and food/resources going in hands of EU (after banks, oil and telecomunication comapnies). Maybe some smaller rebelion at first, and NATO "saving" what is still interesting for investers ... And then new Balcan asociation, after Serbia and get nivelated with Croatia. But somehow, I don't see it possible without tons of blood. Do you see my frustation about this scenario ?
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Post by My 2 cents on Feb 14, 2005 4:07:39 GMT 1
What then?
Personally i'd like to see wealthy croats from the diaspora return to the motherland and run the country. Croats who escaped communism to build a better life for their families in a democratic society, for they know how the 'western' world operates better than croats in croatia. I guess what i'm trying to say is that croats from the diaspora have done so much for their community in a foreign country imagine what they could do at home.( does this sound stupid?)
Hey ribaric! excuse my ignorance but u said previously that the EU will put up a trade barrier with croatia if we dont join, doesnt croatia already trade with some EU countries?
Like i said before, we are s.hit in the eyes of others ok maybe not from your average jack and jill that travels to croatia but to the men and woman that run the powers that be we are GAMAD.
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Post by Culchie on Feb 14, 2005 12:36:23 GMT 1
All very well in theory 2 cents, but to be honest, I can't see any 'wealthy Croats' who have done well abroad in a Westernised environment return home to a country that will be isolated from the very environment that made them wealthy.
I can see the difficulty the Croats are in, regarding Gotovina, I believe last week he offered himself for trial in Croatia. It will be his call whether to hand himself in or not, and I guess he is thinking about that alot now. In his mind he fought for a free and better Croatia, so will he take the further step for his people? The problem is that the EU sees 'The Hague' as a neutral court, they see it as the place to judge on matters that could not possibly be fairly judged in either the 'accused' or the 'prosecutors' own territory.
I personally think that they are using a sledge hammer to crack a nut here, and agree with your views that the Croatian nation is being held to ransom on this, especially as these are only accession talks at this stage.
It would be far better if during these talks they can come to some agreed position/compromise through negotiation, however the Croatian government have said "We don't know where he is" , so it is difficult for them to be able to have anything to negotiate with.
Old Guest, I, like Ribaric, slightly misunderstood your position, so sorry for that. I was taking the position that it had been decided by either EU force or vote that Croatia was not to join EU....then what?
I guess the next month is going to tell the story in a big way.
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Post by EMIZ on Feb 14, 2005 13:06:41 GMT 1
my 2 cents:
Hey ribaric! excuse my ignorance but u said previously that the EU will put up a trade barrier with croatia if we dont join, doesnt croatia already trade with some EU countries?
This is true, and actually at present Croatia has so advantages as they are not part of the quota system, however have you noticed how expensive things are here?
This is because the same product that German sells to France for 0% duty, comes to Croatia and is subject to import duty and VAT (PDV).
Another factor is that at present as stated Croatia is currently given a fairly favourable position regarding quotas, however this is only because Croatia is a candidate for the EU, if Croatia ever opts out of the EU.
Almost every Croatian product into EU markets will be restricted by quotas and restrictive import taxes.
Not entering the EU will be financial suicide for Croatia.
There are at present a lot of banners around Zagreb saying say no to the EU, recent polls have shown less than 50% of Croats want EU membership. Personally I don't know where those stats came from, because everybody I speak to wants in.
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Post by Ribaric on Feb 14, 2005 13:07:21 GMT 1
I'm not certain about this but anyone can trade with the EU, but the union has taxes (tarifs) it charges to non EU members who wish to sell into the EU. This normally means that non EU members cannot match the prices for goods charged by the competition (in this case, any EU member) or they have to work for near slave labour money - like China, India etc. Currently, those countries regarded as waiting to enter the EU get tarif waivers (or relief in other ways), these include Croatia, Bulgaria, Turkey, Ukraine, Romania. They do not include Moldova, Belarus and others. (Russia is complicated so I'll leave them out of this). I believe that, if Croatia is deemed, by the EU commissioners, to have not met the accession criteria then they will no longer be regarded as a member in waiting. They will likely say, rightly or wrongly, that this is Croatia's own choice. Whether or not this will result in the full import tarifs being imposed is beyond my knowledge. If pushed for an opinion (so unlike me! ) - I think they will. That's the scenario I fear the most.
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Post by loveu2 on Feb 14, 2005 22:17:18 GMT 1
Someone mentioned all successful croats going back to the homeland.
I am unfortunately one of the few that is going back, almost everyone says we are crazy.....
Most Older Croats do not want to go back because of fear of being ripped off. Someone always knows someone that went back only to lose half their fortune to taxes, corruption and other matters....
I personally am taking a different approach to this, I noticed if you go around like an ordinary citizen and don't stick out. Things go easier for you. This should not be the way it is but that is how it goes. I know some of the people that have come back from croatia upset because they went their with the mind set that they were loaded and life was going to be perfect for them there. What do you expect when you try importing big expensive boats and cars, you are going to get some looks and bring attention to yourself, you are going to have to pay the taxes.
It is not fair but until the corruption gets better in Croatia, you are not going to have older successful Croatians coming back..... They would all love to come back if things were different. No one wants to fight for a better government when you are sitting in america, Australia, etc.... and you are fighting for a better government in your own country, They can't be bothered. If you do want to come back though the secret is to come back without causing a stir, dress average, don't flaunt your money behave like the locals and you should do just fine it is unfortunate but that is reality!
Now on the EU, I have stated before all the reasons why we don't need to be in EU. I personally don't like to be bullied into something..... I was watching the movie lord of the flies, again, the other nite. I was thinking the EU is alot like that movie.... If you don't join you will be banished, then punished for not joining. Why should any country be forced to join and why is it if you don't join, you will be punished, is not life about helping your neighbor and being kind to others that might not be like you. This is no different than going after a country for religious reasons. Instead of religion, it is economic discrimination. Why should any countries that don't want to join be punished with the exception of countries with human rights violations!
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Post by pacificstar on Feb 14, 2005 23:18:59 GMT 1
You know the towns and villages are so small the people know everything about you. They know when you arrive, they know who you are, who your realted to, just everything about you. Its very hard to go under the radar so to speak.
You know when you read the book Under the Tuscan Sun or see the movie you really want to believe you can do the same thing in Croaia that you can do in Italy. Buy a home, fix it to your liking and blend in with the scenery. I don't know if its that easy in Croatia. But I would like to think it would be.
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Post by Ribaric on Feb 15, 2005 1:27:53 GMT 1
Hej pacificstar, I wish I'd known about this before..
I came here and rented, this was to give me time to sus out the fors and againsts of permanent residency. There are many things to learn about people (as Pacificstar points out) but, this EU membership thing raises a big question for people like me, that is: Q: What will the future hold if HR stays out of ther EU? A: Probably a bad time, time to go somewhere else.
This may well cause some aggressive and defensive posts along the lines of "go away anyway if you don't like it" but that would miss the point. I am very fond of Croatia and would be very sad to see it run into problems, but as LU2 says, even the HR expats think she is crazy to come back. If HR stays out of the EU, I will add to the voices telling LU2 to remain in the USA. I'll look to Bulgaria/Greece.
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Post by EMIZ on Feb 15, 2005 2:19:16 GMT 1
It's nice to see u2 in the real world, have you been on the vino this evening u2? Or perhaps just finally admitting the truth? Actually you always knew the truth but didn’t want to admit it in front of foreigners. Several members of my family have the same problem.
U2 we all want a better Croatia, so just tell it as it is, if Croatia was not such screwed up I would stay, I am leaving and it seem likely that my father will leave and transfer his investments to the Czech republic, I am leaving mostly because of the nationalism and rudeness and my father is leaving because of corruption.
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Post by Old Guest on Feb 15, 2005 4:41:32 GMT 1
Hej pacificstar, I wish I'd known about this before.. I came here and rented, this was to give me time to sus out the fors and againsts of permanent residency. There are many things to learn about people (as Pacificstar points out) but, this EU membership thing raises a big question for people like me, that is: Q: What will the future hold if HR stays out of ther EU? A: Probably a bad time, time to go somewhere else. This may well cause some aggressive and defensive posts along the lines of "go away anyway if you don't like it" but that would miss the point. I am very fond of Croatia and would be very sad to see it run into problems, but as LU2 says, even the HR expats think she is crazy to come back. If HR stays out of the EU, I will add to the voices telling LU2 to remain in the USA. I'll look to Bulgaria/Greece. Why would you go away, it will only get more funny and more sunny (scientifical fact) ? Now serious... For this occasion - lets pretend that some suspense in "romance" between EU and Croatia still does exsist. And imagine that we are in the middle of "breakup" ... So far only thing we know is that girlfriend (I am mad, but I will never call her - "bitch" in public) said "I love Gotovina more then you" ... So, after weeks of TV depression, newspapers nightmares, and few bottles of valium (valium reminds me on her so much ) ... instead of listening her telling me how I am doomed without warmth of her breasts (and in fact ... nope, I am just mad ... I won't) ... I decided to go out on sun (and it was there, obviously not yet locked in some office tresor in Brusseles). So I lstarted to look around myself if my non-trusty eyes. And what I sow ? I sow unreasonable amounts of beautiful great dressed womans (instead of expected Atila The Hun's clones) ... So I need honnest advice - should I start looking for Croatian one, or get angry because my ex. is in love in other Croatian and she is doing everything to runaway with him (but so far he seams to be better in runing) ? Help me P.S. This was average Valentines Day in averige life of averige Croatian ... Scared for his future and love life.
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Post by pasko on Feb 15, 2005 5:39:19 GMT 1
Just look at the development of countries like Spain, Portugal or Ireland after joining the E.U. Germany for example pays 1/3rd of the E.U budget and doesnt get a lot back. I think to share wealth is a high value and you guys should look forward to it. I understand the fears of people who are afraid of giving souveranity away after 14 years of independence, but its worth it. And believe me, the E.U plays no role in your everydays life. The countries still have souveranity over the most areas. Gotovina is probably a point but wont be a problem at the end, how german Chancellor Schroeder said "If they dont find Gotovina, they cant find him.." .. Croatia wont develop without the E.U. and i think Croatia is on a good way to join it. Just be a bit more optimistic.
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Post by My 2 cents on Feb 15, 2005 7:49:59 GMT 1
EMIZ please dont turn this topic like u do with all the others, an al;l out fight between u and U2, i stop reading the f.ucking things once both of you start.
About the 'wealthy croats' coming back, i'd like to see most croats return home with that hardworking attitude that they have in the countries they live in now eg U.S, Australia etc etc. Also the mentality of the local croats has to change, a lot of them are lazy and dont want to do s.hit, when they hear how much cash is made abroad their eyes light up but when they hear how long u must work for that cash they tell you your mad.
Culchie wrote 'The problem is that the EU sees 'The Hague' as a neutral court, they see it as the place to judge on matters that could not possibly be fairly judged in either the 'accused' or the 'prosecutors' own territory'
About Gotovina having to be judged in the hague,i dont know why he is such a big deal. Three serbs charged for the atrocities that took place in vukovar are going to be handed over to either the serb or croatian govt. So why cant Gotovina be treated the same. Over 200 ppl were slain in vukovar after the town fell.
Anyway back to the EU, i think even if croatia did find gotovina or he gave himself we still wouldnt be accepted for they'll find something else which croatia would have to do before being accepted into the western world.
Its a dog eat dog world and the EU has bigger teeth.
i'm really starting to hate the EU, why cant croatia be left alone like switzerland.
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Post by loveu2 on Feb 15, 2005 9:26:04 GMT 1
EMIZ please dont turn this topic like u do with all the others, an al;l out fight between u and U2, i stop reading the f.ucking things once both of you start. About the 'wealthy croats' coming back, i'd like to see most croats return home with that hardworking attitude that they have in the countries they live in now eg U.S, Australia etc etc. Also the mentality of the local croats has to change, a lot of them are lazy and dont want to do s.hit, when they hear how much cash is made abroad their eyes light up but when they hear how long u must work for that cash they tell you your mad. Culchie wrote 'The problem is that the EU sees 'The Hague' as a neutral court, they see it as the place to judge on matters that could not possibly be fairly judged in either the 'accused' or the 'prosecutors' own territory' About Gotovina having to be judged in the hague,i dont know why he is such a big deal. Three serbs charged for the atrocities that took place in vukovar are going to be handed over to either the serb or croatian govt. So why cant Gotovina be treated the same. Over 200 ppl were slain in vukovar after the town fell. Anyway back to the EU, i think even if croatia did find gotovina or he gave himself we still wouldnt be accepted for they'll find something else which croatia would have to do before being accepted into the western world. Its a dog eat dog world and the EU has bigger teeth. i'm really starting to hate the EU, why cant croatia be left alone like switzerland. and in my post I forgot to mention switzerland..... They are doing quite all right withOut the EU.
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