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Post by My 2 cents on Mar 19, 2005 23:53:51 GMT 1
Why is it that there are more croats gone to the hague than serbs? Croats are being treated as if they were the aggressors in the war.
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croam
Full Member
Posts: 71
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Post by croam on Mar 19, 2005 23:54:41 GMT 1
UN....OIL FOR FOOD PROGRAM SCAM
billions of dollars stolen...
f**k the UN
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croam
Full Member
Posts: 71
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Post by croam on Mar 19, 2005 23:56:23 GMT 1
I think they are just saying that everyone involved in the breakup of YU was wrong. I think they are trying to not play favorites. Or at least appear that way.
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Post by Ribaric on Mar 20, 2005 1:54:04 GMT 1
Getting back my2cents original question, what will be the problem if HR stays out of the EU? Bearing in mind the arguments I've read throughout this thread, I'd like to put my questions again.
Leave aside pride, history, national identity, foreigners with a superior attitude, comparisons with other countries, how right or wrong western nations have been, America's isolation ....and any other "non business" argument, I would love to concentrate on public wealth, the kuna in peoples' pockets....people's ability to afford to live comfortably.
If HR stays out....
1. The EU will put up trade barriers/tarifs to protect it's internal market. HR will not be able to sell anything to it. The current "Nation in waiting" relief offered to HR will soon go. = Lower exports = Negative balance of payments.
2. The buying power of a BIG customer (EU) will import at cheap prices. HR cannot negotiate the same prices. = Inflation.
3. The EU gives massive subsidies to ensure living standards and economic systems are maintained. = HR won't get any (It transformed Ireland, Portugal and Spain).
4. EU contracts for (nearly) everything will go to EU members, HR won't be asked to supply anything. = Low GDP for HR because it couldn't sell anything it makes or grows or any service it seeks to provide.
5. The EU gives guarantees and preferential rates for loans to it's members. HR already owes billions to the EU. = Huge national debt, who will pay?
6. The EU sells cheaply within it's borders (generally). HR will not be able to buy at the same low prices. = Yet more inflation.
Tell me where I'm wrong please. Tell me what fiscal advantages will be realised if HR does not join. I believe these are the point which REALLY matter.
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Post by star on Mar 20, 2005 2:32:04 GMT 1
Getting back my2cents original question, what will be the problem if HR stays out of the EU? No one is denying the drawbacks of not joining the EU. But would it be a castastrophe if it didn't? I'm not so sure. The EU can only put up so many trade barriers before the World Trade Organization forces them to remove it. That's if Croatia has enough clout to successfuly petition the WTO. Big IF. The other alternative, which seems to be happening right now, is trade with North America and elsewhere. I have no hard data, but from personal observations I'm seeing alot more products from Croatia on Canadian shelves than ever before. Mostly food items. And no, not in specialty shops either, I'm seeing them in the major supermarkets. There is huge potential in Croatia's ports which is under utilized now. If they can get their manufacturing sector up and running, they would explode on the world scene. But there are still too many old commies in influential positions who have no clue how to exploit the free market. It may take a generation or two, but I think Croatia will get there eventually. That being said, joining the EU would definitely fast track this process. That's if Croatia joins before the EU breaks apart. A couple years ago a CIA report estimated that the Union would disintegrate within 15 years unless they reformed the welfare system. So Croatia better get moving if they want to take advantage. Coming in at the end would be even worse than not joining at all. ;D
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Post by FreshAir on Mar 20, 2005 2:49:20 GMT 1
No one is denying the drawbacks of not joining the EU. But would it be a castastrophe if it didn't? I'm not so sure. The EU can only put up so many trade barriers before the World Trade Organization forces them to remove it. That's if Croatia has enough clout to successfuly petition the WTO. Big IF. The other alternative, which seems to be happening right now, is trade with North America and elsewhere. I have no hard data, but from personal observations I'm seeing alot more products from Croatia on Canadian shelves than ever before. Mostly food items. And no, not in specialty shops either, I'm seeing them in the major supermarkets. There is huge potential in Croatia's ports which is under utilized now. If they can get their manufacturing sector up and running, they would explode on the world scene. But there are still too many old commies in influential positions who have no clue how to exploit the free market. It may take a generation or two, but I think Croatia will get there eventually. That being said, joining the EU would definitely fast track this process. That's if Croatia joins before the EU breaks apart. A couple years ago a CIA report estimated that the Union would disintegrate within 15 years unless they reformed the welfare system. So Croatia better get moving if they want to take advantage. Coming in at the end would be even worse than not joining at all. ;D I agree with alot of what you say! I don't think it would be the end for Croatia if she did not get in. It would not be in the best interest of Europe if Croatia fell apart financially that only means to other Europeans that there will be more and more Croatians crossing borders to look for work and causing financial strain on other European countries.... They don't want that! So I don't think they would impose heavy restrictions on Croatia. I agree about lots of products that are showing up in Canada, my relatives in California says that she can find alot of Croatian products in little stores everywhere now. Croatia has a lot of potential, we just need to get rid of this ty corrupt government! We could be a super star of Europe with our beautiful coast and wonderful agriculture, selling lots of our fresh fruits and veggies to the rest of europe and our products to the America's. I also think we will get there, I just want it to be in my lifetime....haha
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Post by CroatianSerbAbroad on Mar 20, 2005 3:54:51 GMT 1
Ribaric you make some very valid points regarding the fiscal implications on Croatia should it not join the EU. I would whole heartedly agree with all of it.
Star, i do not believe the EU will disintegrate regardless of any reports. Yes, it needs reforming but the Germans and French will lead the EU towards an eventual European Federation. I do not feel this is necessary a bad thing, the US now stands as the only global hyperpower (although China is on its heals). Maybe a federal Europe would help achieve a balance of power.
Star, you also mention that the Croatian army achieved in 5 days what the EU could not in four years during "oluja". Although Oluja was well planned and executed, reports suggest most of the serb heavy weaponry had been removed some time before the assault and as such their job was made easier. Plus the EU objective was to secure peace, not take sides.
Are we actually saying that for the sake of one general, Croatia should not take its rightful place in the European Union?. - madness. Tourism will continue to prosper in Croatia and the country needs to establish its credentials as a European, cultured society rather than as some Balkan, backward country.
Ugursuz, i made no comments regarding the activities of Gotovina, if you check the threads it was Irac that made those comments.
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Post by star on Mar 20, 2005 4:56:18 GMT 1
Star, you also mention that the Croatian army achieved in 5 days what the EU could not in four years during "oluja". Although Oluja was well planned and executed, reports suggest most of the serb heavy weaponry had been removed some time before the assault and as such their job was made easier. Well yeah, there is a theory that Milosevic made a tactical mistake by moving weapons to Bosnia. But the Croats displayed hundreds of captured tanks and artillery pieces during the military parade that followed. I even remember watching on CNN as two Serb jets were shot down by surface to air missles near Split I believe. So I don't buy the theory completely. I think it's more likely Milosevic knew he couldn't hang on to Krajina and wanted to concentrate on Bosnia, so he abandoned the Krajina serbs who were caught by surprise. There's even a video on the net showing serb leaders urging the krajina population to leave, most likely to resettle them in captured Bosnian territory. But then Milosevic didn't count on the UN intervening in Bosnia. Depends on how you look at it and which side you were on. The UN imposed an arms embargo on Yugoslavia knowing full well that the Serbs had total control of the army and a huge stockpile of weapons. Croatia and Slovenia had to make due with hunting rifles and bicycles. To alot of Croatians, the EU had definitely taken sides. The EU basically told Croatia to accept their losses and move on. It does seem like madness, but I doubt Gotovina is the only reason Croatia is being denied entry, its just the most convienient one. I think it was a couple years ago or so when Britain and France stated unequivocably that they wanted the western balkans to enter the EU as a single package and not individually. So Croatia will just have to wait until Serbia, Macedonia and Albania are ready.
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Post by star on Mar 20, 2005 5:08:19 GMT 1
oh and not to mention that the US backed Gotovina in Oluja(aka operation storm). So the CIA and most likely even US miitary generals knew exactly what was going on. They were backing Gotovina. Just like they armed the Albanian's, just like they armed Saddham against Iran in the 80s, armed al quaida and the Taliban, and then ten years later starts a fight with them. Welcome to the new world order. Its coming to a theater near you. SOON! jebiga! Exactly, which is why the White House wants the ICTY closed down. Here is a letter written by the Croatian World Congress detailing US involvment with Operation Storm and Ante Gotovina: www.btinternet.com/~nlpwessex/Documents/croatianworldcongress.htm
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Post by CroatianSerbAbroad on Mar 20, 2005 13:49:12 GMT 1
Star i would not disagree with your view on Oluja.
I am simply of the personal opinion that the Croatian Serbs were betrayed and cheated by the Serbians, a lesson i hope we learn forever more.
I believe the intention was nothing more than to displace us and repopulate Kosovo, stemming for an agreement between Milosevic and Tudjman.
Because of this i believe the whole war, starting with the initial civil war in 1991 and the UN holding the Krajina borders until 1995 when Croatia was equipped and ready to take the lands back. As such my feeling is the oluja was developed for a quick win and my feeling is that Milosevic helped make it as a quick as possible.
I read recently that Milosevic demanded that the Croatian Serb delegation not accept the proposed Z-4 plan with Croatia, could this have been because he would then have had to grant the Kosovo albanians the same status? Z-4 plan included everything and more we could have wanted and needed.
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