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Post by EMIZ on Mar 19, 2005 18:04:53 GMT 1
Point taken, although I would say Celtic are as much Irish as they are Scottish.
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Post by irac on Mar 19, 2005 18:33:40 GMT 1
That's way wide of the mark, last I saw Glasgow was in the UK? but then again, with talks of Scottish separation etc Glasgow is no more Irish than Manchester, but hundreds cross the sea weekely to climb on the bandwaggon. A far more Irish club is Hibernians of Edinburgh, at least they are named after an actual group associated with Ireland (Hibernians) rather than a rromantically created invention of 19th century naitonalism in europe (celts). Croserb, the problem is not alone with Gotovina, the man has proven himself not to be a hero but a coward who stood by, at the least, and allowed rape, loooting, murder and destruction on a massive scale when he was supposed to be "in charge". The EU are more worried and holding back on the high levels of corruption in Croatia, the lack of transparency in the country, the inability for it's peoples, past and present, to obtain a fair deal with government and the hugely corrupt business community with its links to international money laundering and people trafficking.
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Post by CroatianSerbAbroad on Mar 19, 2005 19:15:22 GMT 1
I dont know too much about the allegations regarding Gotovina if i am honest Irac. If what you say is true then i would agree he needs to go to the Hague. I honestly believe that if he was a true patriot he would turn himself over.
I actually think the same of Karadzic and Mladic, even though i am ethnically a Serb i honestly dont feel that either Karadzic or Mladic were "hero's".
Wars are ugly, horrible things, aside from normal soldiers the people who usually get involved in them are thugs, criminals, butchers and i believe that true hero's will often go un-noticed. They dont look for the fame, they care only about their country and people.
If Mr Gotovina is a true hero and patriot then lets see him hand himself over. Why should Croatia and its people suffer for one individual?
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Post by steve peraic on Mar 19, 2005 20:14:27 GMT 1
irac can you tell us how isolating croatia will help in any way, the world is full of heroes and villains, one mans terrorist anothers freedom fighter, history is usually re written by the victor, in this case it appears to be re written by the prosecutors in the hague, as for your allegations of corruption.... lack of transparency..... one could level them at any country, italy and berlusconnis control of the media, uk and blairs dis information regarding the iraq war... do i need to continue calling the kettle black
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Post by irac on Mar 19, 2005 20:21:38 GMT 1
I think you must be eating the wrong spuds there steve, but what have those thgins got to do with the problems in Croatia? I presume you're of Croat descent living outside, well in here it's pretty obvious that the problems are, while not entirely, self-made and perpetuating, so, basically, continue calling the pot and kettle by whatever colour makes you happy, but here on the ground we'd prefer to get rid of the problems that are keeping Croatia from the EU, the "war criminals" are a side show to bigger problems.
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Post by CroatianSerbAbroad on Mar 19, 2005 20:45:26 GMT 1
I am surprised by the number of "swipes" at the UK in some of these forums. It really does appear that some people actually believe the UK has a program for undermining Croatia.
Lets get real shall we, Croatia is a small country, percieved no more differently than all the other small countries entering the UK or applying. The UK is also a small country, but has the fourth largest economy in the world and i would argue the most mature democracy on the planet.
It is not a perfect country and yes it has done some bad things (and i would challenge anyone to name a country that has never done anything bad). But i believe the countries aims are well intentioned.
Steve, to argue that Croatia should not be isolated is a way of side stepping the fact that perhaps you feel Gotovina should not be handhd over. The truth is that if he is handed over or turns himself in, Croatia will be allowed into the EU.
So the real issue isnt isolation or taking swipes at the UK, it is really that Croatia wants to have its cake and eat it, Croatia must recognise its actions - Croatia has done some evils things just like Serbia and Bosnia, now lets all be honest and say that, lets accept that war criminals are evil and not a positive reflection on the country and lets all move forward?
The only problem with your argument is that if Serbia was trying to enter the EU without handing over war criminals, you would call it Serbian supremacy or undermining Croatian democratic efforts?
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Post by steve peraic on Mar 19, 2005 20:54:29 GMT 1
yo irac you are right i do live outside of croatia and i think we are both on the same side funnily enough, just seems that the eu wont play ball because of rogues and renegades, the country is being held to ransom as far as i can tell from the press releases in the uk not because of corruption or lack of transparency but because of its history. i have family in croatia, i was born there..... loads of family and go there at least 4 times a year, havent met any money launderers or people traffickers.... not even a sodding petty thief.. so i dont get it.... not that i doubt you, its just i dont see this wild lawless place you speak of, not that much different from anywhere in europe, much smaller economy, much less street hassle, plenty of moaning... but hey i could be in the uk but wouldnt have the sunshine.... you telling me they dont have those problems in romania or bulgaria, I'm sorry but if cypress is good enough for the eu....
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Post by irac on Mar 19, 2005 20:59:44 GMT 1
Steve, take a walk or three along the Bosnian border, or down south of Dubrovnk, Croatia is famous for trafficking, it's famous for money passing through it, even through the "mighty" Hajduk Split! It just takes being there and working amongst it. And again, don't go citing other countries, that doesn't help Croatia. Croatia needs to worry about it's own problems and stop trying to blame others. It needs to try fix it's own problems and stop, for once, from looking outside its' borders to make reasons or excuses or get direction. I think most importantly it needs to remember it's independent!
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Post by steve peraic on Mar 19, 2005 21:14:56 GMT 1
orthodox cro.. in response if you keep criminals in isolation they tend to feel victimised and remain isolated and dangerous, our region has had enough of that surely. i dont like that victim mentality that we balkans carry on our shoulders like a badge of honour... your right lets move forward but how can we if we are looking at the past... and your wrong..... i want the past to be the past for us all....... we are all human... just draw a line under it all... gotovina... mladic.... the whole bloody lot.... merry xmass the war is over
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Post by steve peraic on Mar 19, 2005 21:18:04 GMT 1
irac sounds like manchester to me
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Post by Ugursuz on Mar 19, 2005 22:23:49 GMT 1
One question for all of you here: Has anybody on this forum read the book named 'A Century of War' written by William Engdahl? And if answer is yes, can that person put present moment in history in perspective of this book?
Secondly: Croserb, the problem is not alone with Gotovina, the man has proven himself not to be a hero but a coward who stood by, at the least, and allowed rape, loooting, murder and destruction on a massive scale when he was supposed to be "in charge".
This is what happens when you listen to Carla el Ponte, BBC or read Independent (the most solidly objective media in the universe). This what has been said above is as much a miserable lie as saying that Winston Churchill was not exponent of british collonial politics or that Dr. Mengele was a benefactor deserving a Nobel prize for peace. If you want discussion, you can have it!
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Post by star on Mar 19, 2005 23:18:57 GMT 1
I am amazed at some of the posts here concerning the EU and Croatia. Living in the UK, i was recently asked why the reluctance to hand over Gotovina. This issue seems incredibly childish to me, are we saying that just because Gotovina has to be handed over as a criminal that the EU is a terrible place and that the UK is evil?. If Croatia is permitted to enter into EU accession talks without gotovina being handed over, how will Croatia feel when Serbia is granted accession talks without handing over Karadzic or Mladic? What is the reluctance to hand him over, do you all feel that if he goes he will be definetly convicted as a war criminal?, why would that be?, is their conclusive evidence that he has committed atrocities?. Surely, if he is a hero then he will come home? On the other hand, if you look through history, true hero's have always sacrificed themselves for the good of their people and country. Perhaps Mr Gotovina should do the same? From what I can gather by talking to people, Croats are reluctant because they don't see the hague Tribunal as an objective judical institution but an international political tool. They believe, rightly I think, that the ICTY is seeking to distribute blame equally among all the warring parties when in reality it was the Serbs who were the aggressors in their attempt to build "Greater Serbia". The EU and UN were embarrassed by the Croats during the war. I remember quite clearly how everyone in the media said that the Serbs could not be stopped without a massive invasion force like in Iraq. That it would be an unwinnable quagmire. That the Serbs are too superb of fighters ect. Then in 1995 Croatia, newly armed by the US, accomplished in 5 days what the UN could not do in 4 years. I think their attempt to prosecute Gotovina will come back to haunt them in the future. As far as I can tell they want him not because he personally did anything bad but that he had "command responsibility" over those who may have. If that's the case then every general in history would need to be prosecuted. I laugh every time I watch the news here where the American generals insist they had no knowledge of the Abu Gahraib prison abuses even though there was ample evidence the orders came from high up. They were naturally cleared of all wrong doing. I suspect that's why the US asked Carla to bring her witchhunt to an end last November. If the EU is not careful, they could be opening up a pandora's they will come to regret.
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croam
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Post by croam on Mar 19, 2005 23:46:05 GMT 1
very true. George Bush even said a few months ago that the UN needs to finish this war crimes tribunal crap as soon as possible. Abu Ghraib was most certainly commanded from the top. They knew there would be a scandal and planned it that way. Think about it. They knew that the whole world, and every news media outlet on the planet, would post those abuse pictures on every TV channel across the globe for a month. Thats called free publicity. Bear with me...in muslim culture, women are the scum of the earth. What was in those pictures? Female Soldiers pointing at Jihadists genitals. Jihadists in compromising positions. Why did the US want those pictures out there? TO DEMORALIZE THE ENEMY. One of the most brilliant works of US propoganda to date. And no, I don't feel bad for those Jihadists in Abu Garaib. Thats not even torture what they did to them, and besides, they are prisoners of war in Iraq. As for Guantanamo Bay, I do feel bad for people being held without charges. But Abu Gharaiib? If your in iraq and not on the good side, you deserve to rot in prison.
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croam
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Post by croam on Mar 19, 2005 23:49:12 GMT 1
oh and The Hague is a bunch of bull . Look at the circus act surrounding Slobo's trial. He's just f**king with them everyday. They can't even convict him five years later. Its all for show. To show the world that they are civilized when in reality, so much bad is done behind closed doors or right in front of our noses and disguised as "good". Politicians suck in general. and so do governments. Its the people who always get screwed. Orinary citizens are always the pawns in the big political chess game. f**k em all.
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croam
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Post by croam on Mar 19, 2005 23:52:44 GMT 1
oh and not to mention that the US backed Gotovina in Oluja(aka operation storm). So the CIA and most likely even US miitary generals knew exactly what was going on. They were backing Gotovina. Just like they armed the Albanian's, just like they armed Saddham against Iran in the 80s, armed al quaida and the Taliban, and then ten years later starts a fight with them. Welcome to the new world order. Its coming to a theater near you. SOON! jebiga!
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