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Post by Loveu2 on Feb 15, 2005 9:33:35 GMT 1
It's nice to see u2 in the real world, have you been on the vino this evening u2? Or perhaps just finally admitting the truth? Actually you always knew the truth but didn’t want to admit it in front of foreigners. Several members of my family have the same problem. U2 we all want a better Croatia, so just tell it as it is, if Croatia was not such screwed up I would stay, I am leaving and it seem likely that my father will leave and transfer his investments to the Czech republic, I am leaving mostly because of the nationalism and rudeness and my father is leaving because of corruption. I have been saying the same exact thing I have always said on this forum. Nothing has changed. My opinions are still the same as the first day I posted here. I do wish you would not address me. Thankyou
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Post by loveu2 on Feb 15, 2005 9:40:07 GMT 1
Does anyone have the list of all countries not in the EU?
The ones not in the EU, that want to be in?
The ones not in the EU, that don't want to be in like Switzerland?
Do any of you think that Greece has benefited from the E.U. My husband and I have been debating about this. He feels they have. I feel they would be in the same position they are in now without EU. I am curious to hear some thoughts on Greece?
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Post by EMIZ on Feb 15, 2005 12:48:43 GMT 1
u2: and in my post I forgot to mention switzerland.....
They are doing quite all right withOut the EU. Got any jews gold anywhere?
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Post by An Irish viewpoint on Feb 15, 2005 13:47:21 GMT 1
I think it is misleading to hold out Ireland, Spain etc as shining examples of the immediate benefits of joining the EU.
There is no question that these and other countries have benefited from joining (though nowadays they contribute more and motre) but it took a long time for the benefits to kick in.
In Ireland for exampe, the economy went downhill for at least ten years after joining. Whole industries were lost without the benefits of protectionism. For example, Ireland used to have ship building yards! Something in the region of 65 to 75% of Irish companies went bust or had to be restructured. It is important to remember this difficult time and not to imagine the EU was an instant panacea.
It was only when a new Irish government began to restructure public finances and taxation as well as addressing very tough social issues that the economy began to take off. It was also helped by its close affinity with the US but remember that most investment decisions were made by non-irish americans. Ireland had to compete with the other lower cost producing countries and large scale investment decisions are not made with the heart.
I think there are important lessons for Croatia to learn from this experience. As a new entrant today it faces even more competition from other 'leaner' countries.
To get the most out of the EU, Croatia will first have to help itself by taking the tough decisions needed.
The good news is that there are a lot of people out there who only want to help. Croatia will first need to listen and learn before taking a good informed look at itself.
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Post by Culchie on Feb 15, 2005 14:11:48 GMT 1
I don't think you can compare Switzerland to Croatia at all.
Switzerland has enjoyed through the last century, the dubious honour of being a safe haven for smuggled money, tax evasion, confidentiality, jewels, gold stolen from the Jews etc.... and it was from there their wealth was gained from 1909 throught to the later parts of the last century. They have no emigration to mention either.
It is also land locked, has state of the art transport systems, geographically situated in the centre of Europe, an Alpine region, with natural lakes etc...
An unemployment rate of 3%, in fact in the 1970's recorded an unemployment figure of something like 81 ...yes 81. (I'm open to slight correction on that, I remember it from the Guinness Boook of Records, so if anyone has it to hand they can edit that, it was definitely less than 100).
And because of this enormous wealth they (ahem ...) inherited they are able to have a fantastic welfare system, where if you do lose your job, you keep 66% of your last salary etc....
I worked and lived in Switzerland for 3 years, and their minimum wage in 1994 was something like €500 per week, so I don't think we are comparing apples with apples when talking about Croatia and Switzerland, in the context of the EU.
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Post by Culchie on Feb 15, 2005 14:17:52 GMT 1
Excellent Posting ... from an Irish Viewpoint
The EU is not a miraculous cure either ... it will demand the tough decisions to be made, and a willingless from your politicians to put behind them 'the happy days' where they are the only winners.
Non-Entry to the EU, is not an option for Croatia, there is no upside to that option as far as I can see.
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Post by EMIZ on Feb 15, 2005 15:48:55 GMT 1
Interesting posts, Irish view point is exactly correct, that Ireland had to take take take, but now look at Ireland it is growing so fast that builders can't keep up.
Ireland is now not only a beautiful country, it is also a prosperous country; something Croatia should aspire to, my one concern is that things get worse here before they get better.
Things in Ireland were never this bad. I hope Croatia as a small state can have a lot of money pumped in, in return for long-term benefits of all of Europe.
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Post by Culchie on Feb 15, 2005 16:08:40 GMT 1
Thanks EMIZ,
Ireland is good on the most part, the present struggle is now not poverty or unemployment, it is actually the other extreme now.
Residential growth is sprawled, too many cars, not good enough public transport. Not enough people to fill all the jobs. It is an employees market. This has it's dangers with inflation etc.... and Manufacturing jobs are all but gone, as is small scale farming and fishing. So my fathers generation would not be as comfortable living in the modern Ireland as anyone under 40 would be, it is a very different country now.
Our Celtic Tiger caught us on the back foot, we did not expect it to happen the way it did.... it just exploded.
Our issues now are mainly social issues, we need our Healthcare system to be able to manage our population (increasingly aging population). We need public transport in a very bad way. We need services such as schools and hospitals to be provided along with all the new estates.
These are not really complaints, these are issues that need to be dealt with. Nobody would turn the clock back 20 years, that is for sure.
However, we are getting ther slowly but surely I think. The government got a fairly direct wake up call last summer in the EU elections, so they got a pretty clear message what is expected of them, people want the less fortunate to be looked after now, the Joe Soap on the street is reasonably content with their lot now.
And it is that context that I feel that the EU is there to help Croatia in the same way we received help.
Yes there is beauracy involved, yes some industries will suffer, yes it will be a different way of life, yes people move to be more neutral European philosophy rather than Nationalistic ....but all in all, it is a far better place to be.
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Post by pacificstar on Feb 15, 2005 17:33:06 GMT 1
And Ireland is a far better place for tourist to visit. And I think Croatia will benefit in this way as well. Tourist's come to expereince the castles, churches, the crafts people and they spend money in the pubs, shops and the B & B's. Face it Croatia needs those Kuna's or Euro's too. Maybe that money comes in only in the summer months but if its a substantial amount it might carry you through the year.
Culchie, where are you living in Ireland?
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Post by Culchie on Feb 15, 2005 17:38:53 GMT 1
I'm from Mayo, but live in Dublin .
No jobs in Mayo !!! ....Another Issue .... 74% of all jobs advertised in 2004 were for the Greater Dublin area.
It is estimated by 2010, 50% of people will ive in Dublin.... and I will not be one of them !!
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Post by LoveU2 on Feb 15, 2005 20:15:44 GMT 1
I sure wish more people left posts, it truly gets boring seeing the same old people leaving posts. This includes myself. I already know what most of you are going to say and most of you know what I am going to say. I wish there were others with fresh idea's and comments.
The other Croatian speaking forums get much more diversity in opinions. All from Croatians.
Trully funny that an english speaking forum on Croatia and it is always the same ol people and stuff...hahaha.
You would think that with all the diversity of people that can speak english you would have more posters....
I like to come to this forum rather than croatian one because it is easier for me to write and read in english. I just wish it had the depth and diversity that the croatian forum has!
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Sue
Full Member
Posts: 47
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Post by Sue on Feb 15, 2005 22:04:45 GMT 1
the question posed is pretty even handed, yes or no to the euro, all the responces seem to assume joining would be a good thing and then argue one way or the other using historical comparisons. I think we are in a very different position in croatia to ireland or spain, some haven hinted that we are unwelcome in europe and i think to some governments we are but we do have our friends. Yes we do have a dodgy history but then who doesn't, fascism anti semitism.... yes but then again who doesn't. Why isn't Douglas Hurd on trail why isn't the dutch general who failed to defend srebrenica being disgraced. The double standards are outrageous especially in light of the uk's recent behaviour in the middle east, prisoners tortured, occupying forces acting with impunity and an impotent EU wringing it's hands, give me a break EU, you can keep keep it i'd rather have my dignity, we the Hrvati have been struggling for over a thounsand years to have a home, numerous members of my family have been killed, dislocated, and they harp on about justice in the hague, just another case of colonialism as far as i can see, keep your rolls royces and your rolex watches and Mcdonalds and your sad fat lives...... EU no thanks
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Post by My 2 cents on Feb 16, 2005 0:42:12 GMT 1
Thats what i'm talking about, well in sue!
I know it was wishful thinking when i said why cant croatia be like switzerland, all i was trying to say is for everyone to leave croatia alone and let us do our own thing just like the god d**n swiss.
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Post by Three Lions on Feb 16, 2005 1:43:50 GMT 1
.......because Switzerland is in a different league to Croatia, and the EU wants a nice little new economic market with a nice long coastline with holiday apartments to rent out. When has Croatia been truely independent anyway? Soon you won't be able to move in your country without tripping over a German/Italian/Austrian etc tourist. You talk as if you want to live back in an independent Yugoslavia fighting against the Soviet Union. May be you want to wear blue overalls and pretend its the 1930's. Do you drive a Zastava?
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three girl thingycats
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Post by three girl thingycats on Feb 16, 2005 5:08:05 GMT 1
So because we've been independant for only 14 years then its ok for others to rule us?
I wish it was 1941 and we were fighting you!!
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